There is a very sophisticated piece of equipment commercially sold under the name of "shovel" or "spade" that one should expect to find remarkably useful in the resurveying of boundaries.
One of the tasks for the afternoon was to locate a pipe set in 1938 that was the common corner of an adjoining subdivision laid out and platted in 1940 by the same engineer/surveyor. At first impression, the original pipe was missing. After all, LoupGarou Surveying had set one of their rod and cap monuments within about half a foot of the calculated position. So, clearly their rod and cap was important "evidence" of where the corner was, right? It was set in 2006, so by now it would be impossible to ignore, yes?
Well, the ordinary procedure, i.e. pull the LoupGarou rod and cap and use metal detector to search for original pipe, wouldn't work in this location. One of the landowners had hired Bethlehem Steel as his landscapers. The bed edging was probably 3/4-inch plate and there were lots of other ferrous bits and pieces installed with it.
So, I explained to the adjoining landowner why I needed to dig in his planting bed for a 1938-vintage pipe that was probably about 24 inches below grade and (pro forma) asked if he minded. He was obliging, so we turned the "spade" loose on the theoretical coordinates of the corner. Within the first minute of "digging" (as it is called) we turned up the top of a very rusty 3/8-inch rebar about 0.32 ft. away from the LoupGarou rod and cap.
Well, the 3/8-inch rebar wasn't of a pattern made in 1938 and in any event the 1938 surveyor said that he'd set an "iron pipe" there. So I reactivated the "spade" with the depth sensor set to "about 24 inches". At 20 inches, that amazing tool found an old iron pipe that in fact the 3/8 in. rebar had been driven into. That original pipe was 0.49 ft. distant horizontally from the LoupGarou rod and cap.
As a courtesy, I knocked on the landowner's door and asked him whether he'd like to see the 1938-vintage pipe that was the corner of his lot. That was an interesting conversation that followed when he noted that it looked like his landscapers had done a better job of locating the steel bed edging on the lot line than LoupGarou Surveying had done.
Within less than 65 ft. the "spade" apparatus found two other artifacts from that ancient year of 1940 with modern rebars or rod and cap markers set on average about 0.50 ft. away horizontally.
The modern rebars and rod and cap markers set in 2006 are, of course, extremely important evidence of something that has yet to be determined. Naturally, they must be preserved at all costs, at least until the landowner sees where the lot boundaries described in her deed really are and have been since 1940.
Here is the original pipe from 1938 that was the subject of a thread from yesterday, marking one of the corners of the same 1838 subdivision that the pipe under the steel edging does.
The pipe to the left of the frame is 27 inches down. The rebar on the right of it is 10 inches down. It had to be removed in order to use the metal detector to find the original pipe.
Kent... same thing in my neck of the woods. The 2-bit rebar (#4 x 18") was about 0.4' away from the 60+ year old pin in concrete (circled in red). In fact, the bar couldn't be driven in any further because of the concrete. And the concrete was only about 0.4' below grade. This was at the corner of a power substation lot, and the power company (Appalachian Power) was famous for their pins in concrete at the corners of all of their properties...
> Kent... same thing in my neck of the woods. The 2-bit rebar (#4 x 18") was about 0.4' away from the 60+ year old pin in concrete (circled in red). In fact, the bar couldn't be driven in any further because of the concrete.
Carl, were you using a "shovel" device to find that pin in concrete?
> > Kent... same thing in my neck of the woods. The 2-bit rebar (#4 x 18") was about 0.4' away from the 60+ year old pin in concrete (circled in red). In fact, the bar couldn't be driven in any further because of the concrete.
>
> Carl, were you using a "shovel" device to find that pin in concrete?
Why YES... Oddly enough I was... And some brain power!! I'll bet you don't hear that part from me often.
> > Carl, were you using a "shovel" device to find that pin in concrete?
>
> Why YES... Oddly enough I was... And some brain power!! I'll bet you don't hear that part from me often.
Oh, a brain-powered shovel. I'll bet those cost a bit more.
>
> Oh, a brain-powered shovel. I'll bet those cost a bit more.
you'd think so wouldn't ya??
> >
> > Oh, a brain-powered shovel. I'll bet those cost a bit more.
>
> you'd think so wouldn't ya??
I'm pretty sure that Bryan Taylor has been using a brain-powered shovel, too, but I don't recall him mentioning where he got it.
> I'm pretty sure that Bryan Taylor has been using a brain-powered shovel, too, but I don't recall him mentioning where he got it.
This is a secret that has been passed down in my family for generations - could be a Texas thing. My father was born in Wichita Falls.
And the best part is that the surveyor's who set these crappy irons will get into !!!SO MUCH TROUBLE!!!
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Oh wait, no, they won't.
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Diligence is it's own reward, but the sad fact is most of these crappy surveyors will never be taught a lesson unless someone sues them for damages (and even that seems to never happen).
Caveat emptor
As an amusing footnote: when I showed the landowner the 1938-vintage pipe that marks the corner of his lot under the 3/4-inch steel planting bed edging that his landscapers had installed and I pointed out that the rod and cap marker that LoupGarou Surveying had recently set was about 0.5 ft. off the corner, he had two amusing observations.
His first observation was that it looked as if the landscapers had gotten closer to the lot line than the registered professional land surveyor had. Couldn't argue that one.
His second point was that he was in the land development business and was accustomed to paying about four to five grand for an ALTA standard land title survey for a simple parcel with four corners, and had been surprised when LoupGarou's survey had been only a few hundred dollars. The disparity had been hard to understand but now he did. "I guess you get what you pay for," he said.
"Well," I said, "in theory the licensing process for professional land surveyors should mean that any surveyor is delivering a reliable product to his clients. After all, land surveying deals with many matters that members of the public won't be qualified to evaluate for themselves, so they ought to be able to rely upon the licensed surveyor's services."
"But in reality," I continued, "the economics of the marketplace have meant that the fees for which the least capable surveyors are willing to offer their services have mostly driven out the careful and diligent surveyors from doing residential surveys."
"I've seen you out here a few days, I guess your work is going to be pretty expensive," he said.
"Well," I said, "knowing the right answer is usually cheapest."
"Yeah, it's a lot less expensive than a lawsuit. What's that Latin phrase?" he continued.
"Caveat emptor?"
"Yeah, caveat emptor."
It would have made a great video.
Caveat emptor
Good post Kent. I think the importance of diligent corner search is lost on many surveyors. Unfortunately that skill isn't the focus in academia, maybe a brief treatment in some boundary surveying courses; but the true value is learned through experience.
This subject always reminds me of the shortage of proper mentoring in our profession. I hope these situations become less frequent across our entire nation.
you know I am goona steal this.
"knowing the right answer is usually cheapest."
> > I'm pretty sure that Bryan Taylor has been using a brain-powered shovel, too, but I don't recall him mentioning where he got it.
>
> This is a secret that has been passed down in my family for generations - could be a Texas thing. My father was born in Wichita Falls.
I had a new helper a few months ago, very eager to learn and help, always hustling. He tried to take over the shoveling duties but it was clear that he was not ready for that until he saw how it is done a few times.
At the end of the day I thanked him for his help, and he replied...."I would have done more of the dirty work like digging but I am pretty sure you implied that I was not qualified to run the shovel."
For what it's worth I was also born in Texas...btw, if anyone sees my deadbeat dad over there then kick him in the balls for me, I would provide a description but I do not have one.
> For what it's worth I was also born in Texas...btw, if anyone sees my deadbeat dad over there then kick him in the balls for me, I would provide a description but I do not have one.
Ironically upon quizzing my father more on the origins of one of our ancestors who homesteaded in the tiny town of Margaret (which was named for the first white born child of this man in that area), it appears he was also a deadbeat Dad who took off with a mistress and settled out there from I believe the New York area. Unknown how good this man was with that "shovel" thingamabobber.
> Ironically upon quizzing my father more on the origins of one of our ancestors who homesteaded in the tiny town of Margaret (which was named for the first white born child of this man in that area), it appears he was also a deadbeat Dad who took off with a mistress and settled out there from I believe the New York area. Unknown how good this man was with that "shovel" thingamabobber.
Well, possibly he was more adept with the probe. :>
> Well, possibly he was more adept with the probe. :>
Yes, that definitely sounds like that is the case.
