Am doing some research for a class at the Nebraska Convention next February.
Found an interesting case where the Nebraska Court noted that the defined of profession is:
a calling requiring specialized knowledge and often long and intensive preparation, including instruction in skills and methods as well as in the scientific, historical, or scholarly principles underlying such skills and methods, maintaining by force of organization or concerted opinion high standards of achievement and conduct, and committing its members to continued study and to a kind of work which has for its prime purpose the rendering of a public service
In this case the court declined to determine whether Land Surveying fell within that definition.
There are some other interesting things about this case that are worthy of discussion in other threads. For now the simple question is.... does land surveying meet this definition as described by the Nebraska Courts?
Larry P
PS: If anyone knows whether the Nebraska Courts have made a determination since this 1994 case that would be good to know.
Larry,
For burps and giggles, you may want to look at this 1992 Florida case that asked the same question. Court decided that a profession requires a college degree, which we did not at that time.
602 So.2d 1273 (1992)
Richard GARDEN, et ux., Petitioners
v.
J. Sherman FRIER, etc., Respondents.
No. 78156.
Supreme Court of Florida.
July 2, 1992.
http://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=11274485133076423105&q=FRIER&hl=en&as_sdt=2,10
I would be tempted to say it is a profession by that definition, evidence being;
a calling requiring specialized knowledge and often long and intensive preparation - Multi-step licensure requirements consisting of knowledge not normally acquired through a non-survey specific education, time in requirements before testing is an option.
including instruction in skills and methods as well as in the scientific, historical, or scholarly principles underlying such skills and methods - Same as above.
maintaining by force of organization or concerted opinion high standards of achievement and conduct, and committing its members to continued study and to a kind of work which has for its prime purpose the rendering of a public service. - State organizations and state laws regarding the functions performed by surveyors. If one fails to follow the set rules/standards license can be revoked, as with failure to earn enough continuing education credits.
I would say the court messed up in this case, but reading the case it sounds like it was all around messed up. Will you be making your talk available after it's been presented?
With such a broad based description, I would venture to guess that the dish washer at the Holiday Inn could make an honest argument that his job could be considered a profession.
A more entertaining discussion would be; why does anybody care if surveying is classified as a profession? I would venture to guess this is nothing more than an ego driven debate.
> A more entertaining discussion would be; why does anybody care if surveying is classified as a profession? I would venture to guess this is nothing more than an ego driven debate.
It has to do with statue of limitations in this case, at least that's how I read it.
My comment was limited to this post, not the case.
Ok then!
I would mostly agree with Gene,
...but the question of whether or not Land Surveying is a profession by definition of the court really has to do with what the court will label the testimony of a Land Surveyor... Expert Witness (which must by definion of the court must be a professional) or just a Fact Witness and not entitled to professional hourly compensation for their testimony, even though they are rendering an opinion based on their knowlege of land surveying.
It doesn't really matter whether or not the courts want to call us professionals or a trade, we have our own requirements and standards that any potential surveyor must obtain in order to gain licensure.
The Florida case is considered stare decisis, and the degree makes a difference, but I say with a degree or not, we are professionals, at least in the State of Texas, but that's just me.
AS3
> ... why does anybody care if surveying is classified as a profession? ...
Mr. Baker,
That is a fair question. Why does it matter? Turns out it makes a great deal of difference. Those activities that are defined by the Nebraska Statutes as "Professional" have a very specific statute of limitations on liability that comes with the activity. Occupations not meeting the legal definition do not get the protection provided by the Statute.
Read the case and you'll see that was a critical element to the ruling.
Larry P
> ...but the question of whether or not Land Surveying is a profession by definition of the court really has to do with what the court will label the testimony of a Land Surveyor...
Actually it has to do with liability, not court testimony.
> It doesn't really matter whether or not the courts want to call us professionals or a trade, we have our own requirements and standards that any potential surveyor must obtain in order to gain licensure.
>
If you limit your view to testimony, I agree that whether or not surveying is considered a Profession holds little meaning. But, if you look this from a view to limiting your professional liability, it makes a great deal of difference.
Larry P
Obviously, something is going on between you and Larry P.
I get it......you don't like him. But, just out of curiosity, is it really necessary each time he posts to enter the thread with some kind of snide remark or taunt?
After all, we are not in the P&R category here, and it's not as if he posts "Hey Gene Baker, how about THIS?".
Statute of Limitation
Statute of Limitations are defined specifically for Land Surveyors by Texas State Statute in the land surveyors act, without defining whether or not Land Surveying is considered a profession by the a court of law.
Are you saying that the statute of limitations defined by state statute for land surveyors is nullified by professional status in a court of law? I would think not, but this ain't Nebraska.
AS3
> ... Will you be making your talk available after it's been presented?
The presentations will be at the PSAN Winter Convention. I have no idea whether they plan to record the seminars.
Sorry I couldn't be more helpful.
Larry P
Pshaw Cowboy
> I get it......you don't like him. But, just out of curiosity, is it really necessary each time he posts to enter the thread with some kind of snide remark or taunt?
Of course it is necessary. "This aint no rest home" Breakfast Club.
AS3
Pshaw Cowboy
LOL, Adam.
Yeah, I know some folks just draw that kind of response.....Kent is one I can think of offhand, and maybe Bob M as well. Ben Purvis, Beerleg, Gunther Chain, a couple of others.
But, Larry???.....I just don't get it.
...a calling requiring specialized knowledge and often long and intensive preparation....
.....including instruction in skills and methods as well as in the scientific, historical, or scholarly principles underlying such skills and methods....
....maintaining by force of organization or concerted opinion high standards of achievement and conduct, and committing its members to continued study and to a kind of work which has for its prime purpose the rendering of a public service.....
I don't know if much of that applies to dishwashing. I'm thinking Gene, Larry, myself and almost anyone who posts here could easily become a dishwasher WITHOUT any of the above.
I've found over the years that people respect you in proportion to how much you repsect yourself. If you consider yourself a tradesman, or something less than a professional, and you act that way, you will generally be treated that way by people who use your services. Particularly by others who consider themselves professionals.
You might make just as much money, you might have just as long a career, I guess it depends upon what you want out of your surveying education and experience.
To my mind surveying has been a profession for hundreds of years. Any who try to convince me otherwise will likely get ignored.
🙂
> I don't know if much of that applies to dishwashing. I'm thinking Gene, Larry, myself and almost anyone who posts here could easily become a dishwasher WITHOUT any of the above.
A Georgetown University study showed that college educated dishwashers make, on average, 84% more than their high school educated compatriots 😉
S.C.
I will not agree that every time Larry P has starts a thread, I respond with “…snide remark or taunt?” As I recall it, I have done this twice in recent memory:
Yesterday with the presumption that he would entertain the idea to teach me ethics, but only if I was up to the task and was willing to think.
And today, with the profession versus trade argument that I find childish.
I would suggest that Mr. P. is unknowingly baiting me with two subjects that I have a certain passion (or non-passion) for.
This being an open forum for discussion, I assume the author of threads welcome comment, snide or otherwise. I did not realize I was offending your otherwise neutral thoughts. I apologize to you and Mr. P. if he considers my comments as personal attacks on him. They are merely responses to the very specific post and the presumptions therein.
Thank you Cowboy. Like you I see surveying as meeting all the elements with one possible exception.
The court case I reference was decided in 1994. I know that Nebraska has a Continuing Ed requirement now. But I do not know if they had the CE requirement back in 1994.
Larry P
