I'm still an LSIT working towards a license, so forgive me if this is a silly question.
I was retracing a lot of a subdivision that has six corners. According to the original subdivision plat, a rebar with an 1 1/2" aluminum cap was set at each of the six corners. I found corners 1, 2, and 3 but corners 4, 5, and 6 were gone. In their place were wooded fence post corners for a pretty new barbed-wire fence between this lot and the neighbors lot. Using the record bearings and distances from the three found monuments, the fence corners are all exactly where the other three rebar should have been. The search spots are essentially inside the wooden posts. I feel that the evidence suggests that the owner before the current owner (who knows nothing about the creation of the fence, only that it was there when he bought it a few years ago) must have removed the monuments and then in their exact location set the wooden fence corners. Seems like a completly understandable thing for a landowner wanting to build his fence on the boundary line to do.
Now for the question: If I wanted to set new survey monuments for the corner locations since the old ones were removed, what would/should I do? I obviously can't set them where they originally were since the fence corners are now occupying those spots. Would it even be necessary to set new rebar since the wooden fence post corners are like the new monuments marking the lot boundary in place of the rebar? The only thing I can think is to set a witness corner and say so on the plat. Does anybody even bother to set a monument in these cases, or just call out the fence post as the corner? My main concern is the future removal or simple replacement of the fence corners and the possible lack of diligence to set the new fence corners in the exact location of the current fence corners. If that were to occur then the witness corners would hopefully make such an event obvious to future surveyors so that the new fence corners weren't still considered the lot boundary. If the fence was simply removed due to land owner and land use change then there would be a way to locate where those fence corners once were.
What do others do in this kind of case?
The only thing I can think is to set a witness corner and say so on the plat. Does anybody even bother to set a monument in these cases, or just call out the fence post as the corner?
Sure, I'd consider setting a WC monument a standard solution. I set aluminum caps on rebar and would stamp the offset to the corner on the cap. I consider the best practice is to set two WC monuments, one on each line heading into the corner. Using a fence post as a boundary marker is for folks who have gotten tired of being land surveyors and are looking for the "EASY" button. Unless the post is plumb, and perfectly regular (as a pipe post would be), and the corner is within a hundredth or two of the center of the post, a fence post is not a monument since it wouldn't mark a definite position except for the purposes of geocaching.
That is a tough question but a good one. Surveyors rarely name the
type of fence post -- hedge post, railroad tie, 3-inch iron pipe, etc.
That is why I do not like the term 'pin' either -- smooth iron rod, rebar,
pipe, etc. A pipe with a cap starts giving a unique position to the
monument or corner. Fence posts tend to move around, over a period of time.
I followed a BOR member in another state who had a hard time making his own
surveys fit because of moving fence posts (maybe sloppy measurements). I
would find a fence post out of the ground and dangling from barb wire -- I
would then do a bunch of measuring and imagination where the fence post was.
There was no iron monument.
You could drive a RR spike or cotton picker spindle in the top of the fence
posts that were exactly at the calculated position.
When I was young, I wanted exact answers. Surveying sometimes has them.
Set the WC just as Kent describes. On line going in and on line going out, preferably at an even foot offset. It is the law in KY.
I agree that setting WC on line is the standard practice.
"Would it even be necessary to set new rebar since the wooden fence post corners are like the new monuments marking the lot boundary in place of the rebar?"
The technical term for the fence posts is "memorial". But they may become "new monuments marking the lot boundary" if a conveyance is made that references them directly, by calling for them or for your map showing them. You should keep this in mind if you are writing a new description for the parcel because generally a passing call is subordinate to a corner monument. If you want the WC's to control in the future (for the reasons Kent mentioned), you need to write the description properly giving the WC's controlling status.
I set a witness corner to a fence post once.
It cost me a 2 hour non billable drive to explain to the owner just what it was.
It was clearly marked and stamped, shown on the plat and called for in the description, but it was a "corner" in this guys mind.
I do not do that anymore.
If it fits, it gets my vote.
Randy
Set what?
I would set NOTHING! The fence corner is a monument just the same as a rebar or pipe... Except the fencepost occupies the corner and a set marker would not.
Why Are You Asking Us? Ask The PLS In Responsible Charge
Our opininions will be all over the board. I am fairly sure that your boss has fewer opinions which require much more respect.
You fail to mention the location of any adjacent lot markers. 3 out of 6 markers is a good start for a survey, but a survey it is not.
Paul in PA
Randy, Yeah, there is that confusion factor. Drive em below grade so they're available to a retracement surveyor in the future but not causing confusion to landowners in the meantime. And to be clear, I wouldn't fault a surveyor for not setting WC's in this situation (unless the law requires it as apparently in Kentucky). By standard practice I refer to how they would be set if they are. Not sure how many would actually bother or would think as you do that it does more harm than good.
And then there's the economic factor to consider. Does the contract require or allow for a return trip, otherwise unecessary, to set six WC's (in this case). Some clients might object to this as hours not contemplated in the bargain and not needed to satisfy the clients purpose. Heck, could be unethical to set the darn things in certain situations.
Rarely a one size fits all solution to these things.
I would set a nail/washer in the base of the post. Plat always shows monument details, kind size type found or set. For rural or residential property, within the diameter of the post is plenty good enough. I definately would bury any WC in proximity of the post if I thought one was necessary. Perfectly natural for someone to see the WC and start thinking about moving the fence based upon assumptions. Few homeowners would think to research the records for surveys/plats, they go with what's on the ground that can be seen without locators or spades. And assumptions are plenty good enough for the great majority when compared to surveyor fees. It's just recognition of reality.
I just love it when I see a fence obviously build on the prior monuments. Now my plat can show proof of the fence as the monument.
A wooden fence post would be considered a inadequate monument in KY. A fence post made of a ferrous material might be considered an adequate monument. Refer to the standards of practice in your state. If in doubt, contact the board of licensure.
Inadequate??? What?
I bet a 30" oak is considered an inadequate monument in the eyes of the KY law, but any surveyor worth his own salt knows better than that
A couple of questions:
What is more important, the "monument" or the "corner". Please refer to the definitions of both before responding.
Who are you performing the survey for? Other surveyors? The BOR? The landowners?
You seem to have found the "corners". Please perpetuate the evidence.
Obviously, you can choose to do several things, most of which are proper, in the described situation. Just don't forget what and why you are really doing it.
Inadequate??? What?
A tree can be used as a corner monument in a rural boundary survey.
Inadequate??? What?
If a tree is called for as the monument in a urban retracement survey, the found tree must be witnessed.
:good:
I disagree. A wood fence post monuments the boundary corner and is the best evidence as to where the original corner was located. The standards in KY do not prohibit a fence as a monument. That would fall under the "alternate" as opposed to the "preferred".
As long as the alternate monument is referenced to a durable physical feature I would agree. I also agree that the fence post is the best evidence of the actual corner. To perpetuate the corner location, I would set the WC and clearly note it on the retracement plat.
W.C.s are easy for the Land Surveyor but could cause confusion.
I would prefer to have the property owner spend some money and replace the wood posts with steel posts set in concrete with a tag on top or he could offset the steel post in a little and set the monument on the corner in the concrete foundation.
This is their property corner so a little extra money would be well worth it in the long run.
On the other hand if I tell my boss we should set stainless steel monuments with brass caps he would say, "but those cost a lot of money." Thousands to get the corner location so we can set a piece of cheap rebar there or an aluminum monument which we have because they are cheaper.
> I set a witness corner to a fence post once.
>
> It was clearly marked and stamped, shown on the plat and called for in the description, but it was a "corner" in this guys mind.
The witness corner is mainly for the benefit of the public record and the next surveyor following it at some time in the future. It's understood that the average landowner knows surprisingly little about the boundaries of his or her property and may even think that the lath left beside permanent markers mark the corners. Fences have been built to random traverse lines. Idiot landowners come and go, but the land remains.
One thing I've discovered on rural boundaries is that witness monuments need to be far enough away from the fence corner that they don't fall within the braced section of the fence that is typically constructed at corners of wire fences. If the monument falls under a horizontal brace so that a standard RTK rover pole or prism rod can't be plumbed on it, the odds are good that Quickie Dickie & Associates's field party will just get a shot "as close as possible" to the marker and call it good. I couldn't believe it the first time I encountered that, but the second time I realized that standards of care have slid quite a ways in some quarters of the profession.
