I have just completed an update to a survey that I had done several yeaars ago. The original deed was in the form of
"to John Doe, singleman and Jane Smith, singlewoman."
Subsequently they were married and the survey is now to aquire a septic easement and the most recent deed is in the form of
"John Doe and Jane Smith, H/W to John Doe and Jane Doe, H/W."
H/W is accepted for Husband and Wife and I note I recently found a deed W/H or Wife and Husband.
Is there accepted terminology and abbreviations currently in use for deeds to denote that a same sex couple is "Married" or whatever terminology your state puts on it?
Paul in PA
John Doe et ux
Jane Smith et vir.
For something like yours for people of homosexual preference
John Doe et al.
> For something like yours for people of homosexual preference
> John Doe et al.
For those who choose to view sexual orientation as a matter of preference: What works for heterosexual preference also works for homosexual preference, e.g. John Doe et vir, Jane Doe et ux.
I would think this question is worthy of legal counsel. Many places those arrangements are not recognized as marriage or having all of the legal benefits and obligations of marriage. It seems to be there is a higher rate of failure, or the death of one partner, in same sex arrangements which could create legal problems for the division of joint property. The way the contracts or deeds are written is very important, especially where the relationship is not a legally recognized marriage with survivor ship provisions in the law. If I run into the need, an attorney will write the document using my description of the lands.
jud
Jim
I suppose your correct, except that in Texas, homosexual marriage is, at the moment, not legal, therefore not worthy of the et ux or et vir, simply et al.
🙂
Jim
Paul appears to be in PA.
Jud has it dead on.
THIS really caught my attention. Am I missing something here? The dates of deeds mean something to me as a surveyor. The names of the grantors and grantees, and their respective genders, especially, not so damned much. Wouldn't that be a matter for the courts to sort out if it was in fact an 'issue'? I mean, WTH? HOW could this question come to bear on the matter of certifying a land survey on a tract land?!
Maybe we not only want to be engineers now but also lawyers? Here your question would most definitely be moot, imho.
I guess this would be a bad time to suggest 'et dix' ?
There should not be any political statement made in a deed when naming the Grantor or Grantee.
Should simply put "and" between their real names and leave it as that.
:good:
The statement "A single ______" is not political, and is critically necessary in community property states to extinguish "co-mingling" of ownership.
It isn't something that a surveyor should ever be concerned with, as they should only be preparing the description, not the deed.
"Gay Deed Question ?" should properly be Homosexual Deed Question
In most states If they are male it would be et. al. or name both as Baron sole.
If both are female similar only adjusted for gender.
Gentlemen, Gentlemen
Can you say
T R O L L ?
Gentlemen, Gentlemen
Angelo,
Where the H did that come from?
Gentlemen, Gentlemen
Around here it is John Deaux and Jane Deaux.
Their dog would be Phideaux Deaux.
Gentlemen, Gentlemen
Usually, it's "...husband and wife as joint tenants" or "...husband and wife as community property" but I think I remember seeing "...who are married to each other" at least once on a deed. It seems like that would work in a state where same-sex marriage is legal at the time of the conveyance. I agree that legal advice would be wise in such a situation.
Gentlemen, Gentlemen
I rather like the question. It is valid. True, it should not normally be of direct concern to a survey project, but, I suppose it could be somehow.
Questions like this make me stop and ponder. Especially, why didn't I already think of this question on my own?
The only difference I'm aware of is that most places a husband/wife designation creates the presumption of a tenancy by entirety which is a joint tenancy. Otherwise the presumption is the deed is tenants in common. These presumptions are only used if it's not specified which type of tenancy is being used.
So, same sex couples need to specify they are taking as a joint tenancy rather than tenants in common, if that's the way they want to do it.
The most recent deed may have been necessary to clarify the ownership for legal reasons that have nothing to do with surveying and it illustrates why surveyors SHOULD NOT be using deed forms in our work.
Use an owner's affidavit along with the survey and surveyors's certificate for survey matters with the owner's affidavit stating the owner's position and authority.
It is too easy for an attorney to challenge the surveyors use of deed forms as an example of unlicensed practice of law, even though we are practising in an area of law where attorney's are not qualified to do what we do or even clearly understand what we should be doing. Remember, the court process still costs lots of money whether you are guilty or innocent.
Richard Schaut
Say what? I've always used the deeds and much of what I did required that I determine ownership for our takings. I have never been accused of practicing law. Our head attorney liked to say that I applied the law but did not practice the law.
I think this is very true.
As to the question then it's a very valid question but probably best directed to an attorney as the specific wording for each state.