Florida de-regulation: more truths

The MAIN truth is that we can hardly get a group of surveyors in any state to get together and agree on any of the topics bought up in these Florida threads.

We are our own worst enemies, as displayed here and elsewhere.

Until we can form a consensus on something, we can't expect the public or other professions to take us seriously.

Then by all means support the deregulation.....just don't bitch about it.

By the way...who are you and where are you from?

Who's bitching? I'm just outlining the problems that got us here. Is this not a potential National problem? If I outline what we're going thru, maybe other States can avoid the same fate.

> The MAIN truth is that we can hardly get a group of surveyors in any state to get together and agree on any of the topics bought up in these Florida threads.
>
> We are our own worst enemies, as displayed here and elsewhere.
>
> Until we can form a consensus on something, we can't expect the public or other professions to take us seriously.

Well said Carl,
I've been stating indirectly on another thread, That the undermining of the Survey Profession is an inside job.

Ralph

We will be regulated, I agree.
But right now the state is spending too much money on too few surveyors.
The four year degree is in fact eliminating competion. We need to switch our group from the list of workers losing all regulation to the list of people who's licensing requirements are getting loosened up. We need to get away from the four year degree requirement.
My father was a tradesman and proud of it. My grandfather was a craftsman, and proud of it. I'm proud of them both. It's the art of surveying, the craft, the trade, that I like about surveying, and calling it a profession doesn't make it one. I say try to get off the 'totally deregulated' list and onto the 'streamlined regulations' list.
We have to be reasonable. We have to compromise. We can't just throw up our arms and say No! No! No!. It just won't work.
And we need to do it fairly quickly in some sort of unified manner.

Macheteman,

I like the way you go about this topic. Reasonable discussion is (obviously) drastically needed within the profession if those in it want to actually address what is going on. It's no good to accept the status quo. Even if it worked for many years for many companies, it is obvious that it's not working for some people in a position to change things.

10) Municipalities have a duty to equally enforce codes enacted. It is not a problem to accept a drawing on a paper napkin of a boundary and proposed improvement showing compliance with setbacks. It is a failure of the municipalities duty to allow a structure to be built in violation. Many have realized this only after successful lawsuits by neighboring landowners. Municipalities that don't want to lose tens of thousands of dollars of taxpayer money in lawsuits are now requiring asbuilt surveys. If the improvement is over the line, they will enforce removal or modification. Many are also requiring a survey to begin with in order to alleviate problems that turn up later. The proper place to put the burden of determining the property line is on the one wishing to make the improvement. If this is not law in your area, you should work to make it law. How could anyone disagree with this? This must seem reasonable even to most politicians.

11) That is as it should be. That's their only function.

12) Not sure what you're getting at here. Municipalities can have stricter regulation than the State, but not lesser. But you may have to approach State agencies to enforce it.

13) I've learned an awful lot at these. Sure, there are those I didn't like, or were boring, or didn't have any new info, or I thought were completely wrong on their information and shouldn't be spreading that incorrect stuff. But CEU's are here to stay. I always went to these before they were required and I always will. I presented once for attorneys and title people. It's not easy, some thought it great and others thought it sucked. I think the requirement of CEU's is wrongheaded. Isn't there a better way to get people interested and motivated to listen to others who may have unique perspectives or better information in the area of business or profession a person has chosen?

14) Yes, and more than that, patterns of court cases need study. Typically this is provided by graduate programs in other professions. The things I would like to study if I had time and money, relating to land boundaries, can't hardly be counted. But we don't have these kinds of programs. Our graduate surveying degrees deal with geodetic surveying and higher math. Law schools don't teach boundary law, and many have done away with property law as a requirement. There's a huge black hole were boundary law and related consequences are concerned. Nobody knows what's in it. A few surveyors have studied it somewhat and written textbooks, or done it on their own for use in private practice or seminars. But that is completely different than in depth studies and scholarly evaluation of impacts on society and what the surveyors role is or could be. It's a fascinating body of research that nobody has tackled.

I'm sure you missed an awful lot, but we don't know what it is.

> It's the art of surveying, the craft, the trade, that I like about surveying, and calling it a profession doesn't make it one.

This points out exactly how doomed the occupation of surveying is. Is it a trade? a craft? Apparently not a profession by a long shot...I guarantee landscape architects, geologists, engineers, etc aren't struggling with even knowing what their practice is or isn't - there can't possibly be any kind of unification with such diverging beliefs on what surveyors even are or should be.

> Who's bitching? I'm just outlining the problems that got us here. Is this not a potential National problem? If I outline what we're going thru, maybe other States can avoid the same fate.

Thanks Machete!
It's definitely a National Problem

Ralph

Duane,

My point about (12) is that many on the Bulletin Boards are making this a partisan political issue and blaming the party in control. It's not politics, it's us.

As for the CEU's, yes, I too have learned much at them. But what has happened here is that our State Board is so concerned with governing the "quality" of the CEU's that they've made it inflexible for the instructors to include many other potentially enlightening topics. The profession (or trade if you prefer) has so many items of interest going on all over the world that could be taught, instead we spend 80% of each course living in a State vacuum. The world has changed, we needed to change with it, and we didn't.

I appreciate your sentiments. Other specialties would like to absorb us as we lay a wounded animal (GIS-geospatial come to mind), I think our problem is more about territorial and State-only mentality than anything else. If we adapt nationally we can take control of Surveying before others take it from us.

"Surveying" is so diverse that I don't see how it can be categorized. Some things we do are like a trade, some are like a craft, some are like a profession. So what? How is an inability to pigeon-hole surveyors into one category or another dooming us? I get tired of that line of thought about the lack of respect we get because we're not considered a profession. I grew up with my dad as a surveyor and I thought he got plenty of respect in the community. When I say I'm a surveyor, I don't hang my head and say "just a surveyor, not an engineer, architect, etc."

I think if the overall economy wasn't so bad, we would basically be doing what we have always done and making money at it. Boundary, construction, land divisions, GIS, those fields all still need us, the problem is nobody's got any money. I don't see where other people have stolen that work from us, there's just very little work being done by anybody.

Good point Steve. I think the recession has definitely "ripened" this debate/discussion.

"I think if the overall economy wasn't so bad, we would basically be doing what we have always done and making money at it. Boundary, construction, land divisions, GIS, those fields all still need us, the problem is nobody's got any money. I don't see where other people have stolen that work from us, there's just very little work being done by anybody."

BINGO! That is right on! This is going to spread to other States unless we do something to control it.

My suggestion? All the State Boards get together & offer REGIONAL Surveyor licensing & oversight, 8 total: Northwest, Southwest, Upper Midwest, Lower Midwest, Northeast, Southeast, Hawaii/territories & Alaska

> "Surveying" is so diverse that I don't see how it can be categorized. Some things we do are like a trade, some are like a craft, some are like a profession. So what? How is an inability to pigeon-hole surveyors into one category or another dooming us?

I'm not suggesting nor advocating pigeon-holing - my point being that as Florida teeters into deregulation, practioners in that state (& others) are still arguing over whether requiring a degree was or wasn't a good idea(!) How can the occupation be 'unified' if we can't even agree on what the base requirements to enter into surveying should be? We simply don't have respect for each other, whether oldschool apprentice, or newschool bachelor's. As I said, I doubt the landscape architects or geologists are splitting into these type of divisions.

I don't know if they are or not. I haven't checked out LandscapeArchitectConnect.com if there is such a thing. If I had to guess, though, I'd bet that landscape architects are equally peeved that lackleg lowballer mow-and-blow outfits are doing what the landscape architects think should be their jobs. A few years ago when our yard was badly in need of an upgrade, we hired a landscape architect and had him and his crew install a bunch of expensive landscaping. It turned out well and I'm sure much better than if we had done it ourselves or hired less-qualified people to do it. Right now, there's no way I'm going to lay out that kind of money on something that isn't absolutely essential. The times they a-changed and hopefully they'll a-change back pretty soon.

> > "Surveying" is so diverse that I don't see how it can be categorized. Some things we do are like a trade, some are like a craft, some are like a profession. So what? How is an inability to pigeon-hole surveyors into one category or another dooming us?
>
> I'm not suggesting nor advocating pigeon-holing - my point being that as Florida teeters into deregulation, practioners in that state (& others) are still arguing over whether requiring a degree was or wasn't a good idea(!) How can the occupation be 'unified' if we can't even agree on what the base requirements to enter into surveying should be? We simply don't have respect for each other, whether oldschool apprentice, or newschool bachelor's. As I said, I doubt the landscape architects or geologists are splitting into these type of divisions.

Well stated Butch,
It seems that there are those that are pretty happy doing their little thing in their neck of the woods and not bothering anybody. Some of these guys have made a career on surveying 20x100 lots and Believed all the answers are in the BLM Manual. They've never had the use for things like SPC or GPS or any other fancy smancy things others speak of. I can see how easily people's experience and exposure could give them a very narrow view of what others consider Surveying. I know when NJ implemented CEUs some of the Older Guys who still owned Transits, preferred to let their licenses lapse.

Ralph

I appreciate your passion, but I disagree with a lot of what you say. First, I don't see any evidence that the degree requirement is killing the profession or decreasing our numbers. Last time I spoke with David Gibson, he told me enrollment at UF was the highest he's ever seen. Further, I posted in another thread a random sample of number of new licenses from the 80s, early 90s and recently, and they were pretty much flat.

In fact, I could say that the degree requirement has caused a huge glut of surveyors in Florida. There was a major spike the late 90s and early 2000s, due to people rushing to get in before the grandfather clause ended. I recall something like 700 new licenses were issued over a two year period circa 2000, which was probably more than the average that were issued in previous decades... Our numbers have actually increase over the years and are at the highest they've ever been.

DOES ANYONE THINK THERE IS A SHORTAGE OF SURVEYORS IN FLORIDA?

Now, will there be downward pressure on our numbers in the near future. YES! But all professions are going to see this. The first wave of Baby Boomers (born in 1946) turn 65 in 2011. Over the next 10-15 years were going to see massive retirements of older workers, with lots of experience, in high-up management and government offices. There is going to be a vacuum of talent and experience in all professions, including surveying. It's going to be something that everyone has to deal with.

The question is, will surveying in Florida remain a profession that students want to get into, or will all those UF grads go to another state. I can tell you, if this law is put through, you're going to see a lot young surveyors leave (perhaps me, as well), and all the UF grads looking at government jobs or out of state employment. No way I'd want to work in the private sector here if I were just finishing a degree ...

>
> My point about (12) is that many on the Bulletin Boards are making this a partisan political issue and blaming the party in control. It's not politics, it's us.
>

So you blame your profession's death on some malaise it suffered from and not the hatchetmen who made the killing cut?

I see it as less a critique of our profession and more of a greedy money grab by realtors and contractors that make up the committee that is pushing this legislation. Their goal is simple. Deregulate. At any cost. And if it lowers the cost to realtors and road builders so much the better, after all you have to serve your base. To throw PSM's, Geologists and Landscape Architect in with hairbraiders? That's patently absurd and your got to look for other factors that would explain such a bizarre action. I see dollar signs in realtor and contractor pockets.

Hate on the rest of our peers if it soothes, but to say "we asked for it" is insulting.

IMVHO,

Rick

> Hate on the rest of our peers if it soothes, but to say "we asked for it" is insulting.

Absolutely right.

Hate? That's ridiculous. We had opportunities to be vigilant and we failed to act on them, that's all I'm saying.