Wondering how many of us send out PDF files with a signature (scanned, traced in CAD or otherwise). I know in Oregon this is not permitted by the board, but I get asked for it all the time. I get so many upset attorneys that I wont email them a final document that I get the impression that I may be the only one?
In Virginia signatures for recording MUST be original.
I will send out PDF's of plats without my signature. I NEVER copy or scan my signature on a plat!
In fact I have a note on every plat that reads: "This is not a true, certified copy unless the signature hereon is an original signing."
The laws governing professional electronic files as a professional work product are different in each state. In Ohio they also differ between the Architecture and Engineering/Surveying professions. I prepared an article for Professional Land Surveyors of Ohio Electronic Information Transfer Requirements (PDF) that appeared in Spring 2009 issue of Ohio Surveying News.
The article references federal and Ohio law that requires electronic signatures to be accepted as legally binding. Your state licensing board for surveyors may not be the only authority enacting rules you need to understand. Most states have enacted laws similar to Ohio. My reading of the Ohio law implies surveyors, when providing electronic base maps to architects, may be required by contract to comply with different (architects) laws and rules.
EDIT: Know I've mentioned this here before. Just appears to be a recurring topic on the board.
> Wondering how many of us send out PDF files with a signature (scanned, traced in CAD or otherwise). I know in Oregon this is not permitted by the board, but I get asked for it all the time. I get so many upset attorneys that I wont email them a final document that I get the impression that I may be the only one?
I use digitally signed and sealed PDF surveys as much as possible. I will only make hard copies if they do not have the ability to print out hard copies for themselves (such as large format drawings).
It's legal in Texas so long as the registrant retains an exact copy of the signed and sealed copies in their records.
Some federal law ....
may say electronic signatures are OK, but Virginia recording law says original only. I suppose that an electronic signature may be OK for things other than recording purposes.
But I ain't going to use an electronic signature and I ain't going to copy or scan mine.
Digital signatures are acceptable in Oregon per OAR 820-010-620.5
> Digital signatures are acceptable in Oregon per OAR 820-010-620.5
But most clients want your John Hancock, not the term "Digital Signature" typed across your stamp. That OAR does not allow you to scan your hand written signature.
Some federal law ....
> may say electronic signatures are OK, but Virginia recording law says original only. I suppose that an electronic signature may be OK for things other than recording purposes.
>
> But I ain't going to use an electronic signature and I ain't going to copy or scan mine.
Dave,
You do realize that an electronic signature is not a scan or copy of your physical signature, right?
As described in the rules of every board I have checked so far, an electronic signature is an authentication and encryption process that allows you to "sign" a document but does not allow any subsequent viewer to change anything. If I send you an electronically signed document you can't even erase one pixel of a smudge or the authentication is broken and the document is no longer signed.
Larry P
> > Digital signatures are acceptable in Oregon per OAR 820-010-620.5
>
> But most clients want your John Hancock, not the term "Digital Signature" typed across your stamp. That OAR does not allow you to scan your hand written signature.
That is because a digital signature is not a copy of your hand written signature.
All my clients who have seen the digital signature process are fine with it. In fact, most are thrilled because I can get them what they need in 5 or 10 minutes as opposed to several days waiting for the US Mail.
Larry P
Yes, I realize .....
that an electronic signature is not a scanned or copied signature. And, yes, the Virginia Board permits them but recording law does not. It's a conflict.
And it's my choice not to use one.
The digital signature routine I use places a copy of my signature along with it. If someone changes the document, the signature goes away with it. This allows my clients to print as many as they need when they need them without getting me to resend them.
Final Signed Sealed PDF Files - Question
Tennessee is in the process of approving the use of digital signatures. I have a question for those of you who are already using digital signatures. What software or process are you using?
I've wondered the same thing. In Florida, a raised seal is also required with signature. Does anyone know if Florida accepts electronic signatures as valid?
> The digital signature routine I use places a copy of my signature along with it. If someone changes the document, the signature goes away with it. This allows my clients to print as many as they need when they need them without getting me to resend them.
what routine is that? That sounds like what I may be looking for.
> I've wondered the same thing. In Florida, a raised seal is also required with signature. Does anyone know if Florida accepts electronic signatures as valid?
In Florida, raised seal is required unless you are using a digital signature, see 5J-17.062 Florida Administrative Code.
Thank you.
I'm still unsure if I want to use that technology, from a purely practical business perspective. It's hard enough to teach people that getting current information is important. Using my signature and seal for leverage is often my last resort. How much business might I lose if my "signed" drawing is used forever?
First question is - why won't you sign a digital plan that you made with a scanned/vector signature?
Does not placing a scanned/vector signature mean that you are not owning up to what you did?
I believe whether it is legal or not in your state or elsewhere, a plan made by me should contain a signature.
A pdf file once created is a time stamped version of your hardcopy plan. Since you vouch for the hardcopy then a digital version is the same thing.
As to not signing it because you want to charge additional for future copies.....I think the client should have the right to reprint copies of your plan in the original state that you submitted your hardcopy.
So what if he prints a 100 copies of your plan for his needs, he already paid you for your services. It is not as if you are redoing the work everytime he requests for a copy.
I feel that giving the client a signed pdf copy removes the responsibility of archiving past survey drawings. I just include in the contract that I will keep a digital copy for 6 months max. I have some clients that call the office requesting for a lot plat after 10 years!
Standing behind my work and defending my opinion has nothing to do with providing copies of possibly out of date survey data. Everyone wants to believe nothing changes in the real world, but we should know that's rarely the case. I provide plenty of hard copies, signed and sealed when my contract is completed. If a client doesn't value that map enough to keep it safe, I might question their judgement.
And frankly, giving out old information could easily be the worst thing to do, for a few reasons. 1) you miss a chance to teach a possible client about the value you an add. 2) your lost client may rely on erroneous information and sue you. Regardless of merit, it will still hurt. 3) I collect, assemble and sell information.., why would I give that away?? This isn't a hobby.
I feel the need to respond to your comments..
> First question is - why won't you sign a digital plan that you made with a scanned/vector signature?
I don't need to use the technology for 99% of my clients/projects
>
> Does not placing a scanned/vector signature mean that you are not owning up to what you did?
All of my maps are signed and sealed, if i send out a PDF, it has a red watermark designating it as "not valid without signature and seal" across the face of it.
>
> I believe whether it is legal or not in your state or elsewhere, a plan made by me should contain a signature.
Agreed, all my documents have an original signature and raised seal.
>
> A pdf file once created is a time stamped version of your hardcopy plan. Since you vouch for the hardcopy then a digital version is the same thing.
A PDF file can exist in perpetuity and be relied on LONG after the facts on the ground have changed. I know people argue that you can defend yourself by saying it's a 'moment in time',,, but again, why would I want to go through the trouble and expense of explaining that in some courtroom?? Why not teach people that if they are making big land decisions, they should have current information?
>
> As to not signing it because you want to charge additional for future copies.....I think the client should have the right to reprint copies of your plan in the original state that you submitted your hardcopy.
I never said that. I don't charge for "future copies", I simply do NOT provide them. IF a potential client wants to move forward without my services, that is their choice, but I don't HAVE to be party to their risky behavior.
>
> So what if he prints a 100 copies of your plan for his needs, he already paid you for your services. It is not as if you are redoing the work everytime he requests for a copy.
Again, I don't care if the client takes my signed maps somewhere and has large format copies made, they aren't official since they don't have my raised seal. Not to mention that all my maps clearly state "Do not copy without written permission" (I know that might not be realistic, but it's there on the map when they accept it from me)
Let's get this straight:
THE SURVEY THEY PAY ME FOR IS THE WORK ON THE GROUND, NOT THE PAPER MAP. THAT IS THE REPRESENTATION OF THE WORK I PERFORMED.
>
> I feel that giving the client a signed pdf copy removes the responsibility of archiving past survey drawings. I just include in the contract that I will keep a digital copy for 6 months max. I have some clients that call the office requesting for a lot plat after 10 years!
Ok, now that is completely backwards. I don't think that is legal here, at least in Florida, we have to keep hard copies of all our work, in case it need to be reviewed. Maybe that has changed as well with the electronic signature rules, but it just seems like a sound business practice.
Andy