FEMA question

Sorry. No help here. It would be a long, long way to the nearest VE zone from here.

I don't think I would. I would leave it as a "5".

With the max enclosure in a VE zone being 200sq.ft., it may hurt them more.

> I don't think I would. I would leave it as a "5".
>
> With the max enclosure in a VE zone being 200sq.ft., it may hurt them more.

I guess I see two things.

One is the "building diagram". clearly this is a 5.

The second is what is constructed within that three dimensional space between the ground and the BFE. So you can have a style 5, but still have an 'elevated' enclosure within that 3-d space. I just try to stay consistent and be able to justify my reasoning. Not every house fits the simple styles described. And I surely don't take into consideration what may or may not "hurt" the client's insurance rate. If there is something easily fixed, like a lack of vents, or an AC pad that can be raised, I bring that up. But structurally, it is what it is.

Andy

Hey Andy,

If you fill out A7 as “5”, I would NOT include the building square footage as an “enclosure”, and show the C2 c) elevation as measured.

Just my opinion.

I'm not suggesting you do only what makes your client's insurance cheaper, but if you are going to call it a 5(which it sounds like it is, you don't give the sqft of the first living floor.
If you do, a insurance agent just going through the motions may think it is a ground level enclosure and charge a boatload.

In this case, I don't think it matters that the building is below ffe.
Like you said, it is what it is.

I agree with this. FEMA defines an enclosure as an unfinished enclosed area that is only used for parking, storage and building entry. The area of the house's living space should not be included in the enclosure area, even if it is well below BFE.

I had one of similar to this recently, about 6 or 7 feet low in a V. Under Biggert Waters, they were quoted $52,000/yr.

BTW, I learned something new on this job. If you have a slab on grade in a V, you are supposed to take the lowest level (in this case the garage floor), subtract the width of the slab (4 inches ?), and enter that as the lowest supporting member. If you can't estimate the floor width, FEMA says to subtract 1 foot from the top of lowest slab. I know that doesn't apply in your case, but it's good to know since we will probably be asked to do a lot more el certs on old zone V homes.

I agree with this. FEMA defines an enclosure as an unfinished enclosed area that is only used for parking, storage and building entry. The area of the house's living space should not be included in the enclosure area, even if it is well below BFE.

Interesting. Was this defined in a technical bulletin? I'd love to see the source of that, since it comes up so often.

Andy

I've seen variations of that definition used many times in FEMA documents, but here is the FEMA definition from the website:

http://www.fema.gov/floodplain-management/enclosure

This one doesn't use the term "unfinished", but it does say "built using flood resistant building material", which has been defined in others areas to limit drywall and flooring.

Here's an example of the enclosure definition from the FEMA Lowest Floor Guide: http://www.fema.gov/media-library-data/63163d0f63c3f54bd0d69774da328147/07_lfg_508_oct2013.pdf

Elevated with Enclosure
For an elevated building located in any A Zone that has an enclosure below the elevated floor, including a crawlspace or an attached garage, the enclosure or garage floor becomes the lowest floor for rating if any of the following conditions exists:
•
The enclosed space is finished (having more than 20 linear feet of interior finished wall [paneling, etc.]); or
•
The unfinished enclosed space is used for other than building access (stairwells, elevators, etc.), parking, or storage; or
•
There is an elevator below the BFE; or
•
The unfinished enclosed space (either the enclosure or garage) has no proper openings.

Here it's basically saying that the enclosure loses it's status as an enclosure if it has more 20 linear feet of finished walls, is used for anything other than parking, stairwell, storage, has an elevator below BFE, or lacks needed flood vents.

Some docs say that drywall is OK as long as it's not taped, mudded and textured ... go figure.

Enclosure
An enclosure is the portion of an elevated building below the lowest elevated floor that is either partially or fully shut in by rigid walls. In determining whether an enclosure is finished, drywall that is mudded, taped, and painted is considered a finished wall. Drywall that is only painted is not considered to be finished. Drywall that is mudded and taped but not painted or textured is also not considered to be finished. Block walls are not considered to be finished even if they are painted. Typically a block (or concrete) wall is part of the foundation system. Painted plywood is considered to be finished.

thanks, I'll dig into that tomorrow. ... but then what is an "elevated floor" if it isn't Above the BFE?

just playing devil's advocate here, but it seems the assumption at play here is that the elevated floor will be above the BFE.

If the whole purpose of the FEMA form is to enable the insurance industry to properly rate the risk for a home, why wouldn't they want to know if the house is finished and lived in below the BFE? Isn't that the whole point?

AJ

I don't think that's the case, the "elevated floor" is just the floor above a crawl space or enclosure. You can have an "elevated floor" that is below BFE.

In the case of building type #5, the insurance company would know that the living area of the house is below BFE if you put an elevation on line C2.a that is below BFE. C2.a is assumed to be living space for a building type 5. Or in your case, since it's a V zone, if item C2.c is below BFE, then they know the lowest supporting member is too low, and their rate will likely go through the roof.

However, if you note an "enclosure" below BFE, in this case, the insurance company might improperly assume that the enclosure is NOT living space

So you're saying that the area of the enclosed space below the BFE ONLY matters to FEMA and the insurance agents when it has nothing valuable in it??

That seems completely backwards to me.

> So you're saying that the area of the enclosed space below the BFE ONLY matters to FEMA and the insurance agents when it has nothing valuable in it??
>
>
> That seems completely backwards to me.

Well, not exactly. Even though FEMA doesn't provide much coverage for "enclosures", FEMA takes an enclosure very seriously. The reason why FEMA cares about enclosed areas below BFE area is because a poorly designed enclosure could cause the entire house to collapse. This is why FEMA requires you to note area of the enclosure and square inches of the flood vents. A house that doesn't have enough flood vents feeding the enclosure is considered a high risk for collapse.

The house you are describing doesn't have an enclosure below BFE, the living space of the house is below BFE, which is much worse, and FEMA will definitely take note and care about that.