I recently proposed to do construction staking on a project with 3 different Prime Contractors. I have worked with all of them and 1 is particularly bad at project management. Always calling me at the last minute, needing me to work on Sunday, not relaying information on what's needed in the field to me etc etc. I added 10% to the number I gave them. Would that be considered un-ethical in anyone's eyes?
Thanks for the input.
No.
No. I'd even consider charging for extra services required, do to his poor management.
> I recently proposed to do construction staking on a project with 3 different Prime Contractors. I have worked with all of them and 1 is particularly bad at project management. Always calling me at the last minute, needing me to work on Sunday, not relaying information on what's needed in the field to me etc etc. I added 10% to the number I gave them. Would that be considered un-ethical in anyone's eyes?
>
> Thanks for the input.
So long as everyone involved with the project agree to the parameters up front, what you charge is not relevant to the question.
Now were you to publish a rate sheet that was based on your time, then "pad" the time for some clients, then that is unethical.
Larry P
> Now were you to publish a rate sheet that was based on your time, then "pad" the time for some clients, then that is unethical.
>
> Larry P
Why, Larry?
If I work for one company at know takes over 180 days to pay, is it unethical to charge them more, knowing that I am financing them?
What's the difference?
I'm afraid I do not follow your logic, here, Larry.
I don't think it's unethical if you are quoting a lump sum price and make the lump sum different for different clients based on your particular knowledge of them, even on the same job. I don't think it would be unethical if you gave different clients different hourly rates based on your knowledge of their habits. But I agree with Larry that if you are giving out an hourly rate and then pad your hours to make up the difference, then I think that would be unethical. If fact I've read of instances where lawyers have lost their license to practice and even gone to jail.
I think Larry means charging for time not spent on the project. "Padding" the bill is usually what that means. Financing by way of late payments should be charged for and is hardly unethical. But that's what contracts are for.
> > Now were you to publish a rate sheet that was based on your time, then "pad" the time for some clients, then that is unethical.
> >
> > Larry P
>
> Why, Larry?
>
> If I work for one company at know takes over 180 days to pay, is it unethical to charge them more, knowing that I am financing them?
It is not unethical to charge different clients different amounts. In fact, I am a huge proponent of that logic. I draw the line at actions that are unilateral and not a part of the initial agreement with the client. Tell the slow pay client they will have to pay a finance charge before you do the work and there is no problem.
>
> What's the difference?
>
> I'm afraid I do not follow your logic, here, Larry.
The difference is those who pad their time are in essence lying to clients. Those who enter into clear agreements prior to contracting with a client are just being smart, not unethical.
Larry P
Yes, if it is based on recovering what you think they should have owed you on a previous job that you did not get because you didn't have a decent contract in place that covered those kinds of things and is this a run on sentence? No, you can't get back at clients by padding the bill on subsequent projects. Live and learn. There are ways to recover these fees without alienating the client or being unethical.
I took the original post to refer to a lump sum quote. I know a Surveyor who focuses on Construction Statking; he always does it lump sum and tries to beat his price; the client agreed to a fixed price for the first set of stakes. He is very familiar with his clients and the work and says he almost always beats his price in terms of time. He increases the price for certain slow paying clients to account for the delay.
I don't think there is an ethical problem with that because everyone agrees to what the business deal is up front and what the hourly rate will be for restaking.
I agree, though, that padding a time-based invoice would be unethical except for things allowed by the contract such as daily minimums.
i see no problem with what you did. i would do it too.
I'm not sure I get you Dave. How would one pad a lump sum quote? It is what it is, win lose or draw. The only question in these is what is included. And that can be a substantial disagreement if the contract is not written carefully. So, I suppose one could pad a lump sum by not doing what they normally would do in that situation and trying to charge extra for it. But again, that's what the contract is for.
I jumped immediately to the "padding" of time problem for a specific reason. While in a seminar at the ACSM meeting in San Diego last year, I heard one of the instructors answer a question about billing.
The question had something to do with charging for the value of the service rather than the time. This instructor said if he knew writing a legal description was worth a certain amount to the client he would call up the employee and ask them to write the description and then tell the employee how much time should be reported to accounting (wink wink) this will take you 5 hours (wink wink).
Gotta be honest, I was aghast. This guy had no clue what he was advocating was not only unethical it is also almost certainly illegal.
Padding your time is a definite issue with those companies who publish standard rate sheets.
Larry P
It would only be unethical if you expected to provide exactly the same services to the one you gave the higher price to. Since you have good reason to expect that contractor to be needy, your actions are not unethical.
Nevertheless, I'm guessing that the needy one will not be understanding of the difference in bids if he learns of them. It could definitely pollute the relationship.
That's what I meant. Larry indicated it is unethical to pad an hourly invoice and I was just pointing out that I took the OP to mean lump sum quote, not hourly.
> It would only be unethical if you expected to provide exactly the same services to the one you gave the higher price to.
Couldn't disagree more.
What services are provided means nothing. What is important is the agreement before any service is provided.
Larry P
Yes... I say if they treat you like a dog they deserve %25 extra. Get your ethics in orde man $$$
Ah! I hadn't considered "padding time". I prefer to operate under lump sum contracts and base the fee on the value of the service.
I agree that adding time to a project to add to a T&M invoice is unethical. Actually, it's fraud. Think "The Firm".
No. I had a contractor like that I added 20% to his cost estimate.
Larry
Your example may not tell the whole story.
"...if he knew writing a legal description was worth a certain amount to the client he would call up the employee and ask them to write the description and then tell the employee how much time should be reported to accounting (wink wink) this will take you 5 hours.."
If the client was agreed to and was billed lump sum for the value of the description, where is the fraud. I agree there may be some internal PM issues. But, we do not know if the client in this case agreed to lump sum or T&M.