Education - my revised perspective (VERY LONG)

Sorry, 3 Hours Of Lab = 1 Hour Of Lecture Credit

Standard college rules.

Also 1 hour of lecture should have 3 hours of homework.

College education is much more than sitting in a classroom.

Standard 3 credit course should go something like this, 2 hours lecture, 3 hours lab and 6 hours homework. Quite often the lab also has work to be done out of the lab, such as lab reports, let's add 1 hour.

3 credits = 12 hours of work. That is why evening courses meant to involve full time working surveyors seldom exceed 2 courses per semester.

I took 3 courses, 10 credits in one semester and could only do it by not working full time. One evening lab and one Saturday lab and not much family time.

Paul in PA

Sorry, 3 Hours Of Lab = 1 Hour Of Lecture Credit

Your standard college rules are anything but standard. The credit varies based on anywhere from 45-60 minutes of course time per credit. Also credit for lab time varies based on if the lab is to be taught by a grad student or faculty or if it is a pre-set lab versus something the student sets-up and conducts. Further, there are some courses that have (3) 50 minute lectures and (1) 50 minute lab, but are listed as 4 credit hours.

I am pretty certain that I indicated that minimally there would be 45 hours. Yes, it is considered that there will be out of class time spent studying and working on projects, but there is no requirement that a student do that. Some may complete their projects in almost no time while others may take well in excess of the suggested time.

This is my biggest issue with the higher education industry. A kid spends 4-5 years minimum to attain specialized knowledge that is actually applied to his field that accounts for a fraction of that time. This is done in the name of diverse instruction. PE, literature, psychology, etc. I'd ra rather see an intense two year program that focuses on specific survey math, land law, observation mechanics, business, ethics, etc. But higher education is not really about higher education. The purpose of the degree requirement for land surveying licensure is professional prestige. The university industry makes a lot of money from kids taking all of the fluff. I'm not opposed to higher education, just the bogus way it's implemented.

Shawn.... Have you read my posts on what happens in SA?

A university education is like you applying a coat of paint the interior of your home. The walls requiring a broad brush or roller to paint.... the general associated degree subjects. The door and window surrounds requiring a different paint and a finer brush and more exacting application..... are the degree specialty subjects. To get that A1 paint job requires years of experience ( field work in chosen arena of surveying} and a further understanding of application and paint types ( further post graduate study).

The fact is that a university education is simply the basic foundation of knowledge for your future specialization. The fact is that it is this broad overall knowledge that is far better than that offered by a single mentor during initial education in the old traditional field training route. if you are a proponent of the latter view then surveyors should not be Licensed in all forms of surveying as they have knowledge only in a particular narrow discipline area. In fact licensed should be strictly reserved for the competent boundary surveyor and as we do in SA register surveyors in all other disciplines of surveying so the public know that for boundary work they must use an LS. I understand that your current system of licensing makes no such differentiation...

Am happy to post link to a recent discussion on topic how we successfully train the graduate surveyor.

RADU

Shawn.... Have you read my posts on what happens in SA?

I am a proponent of education and training. I have taken many educational courses via technical school, seminars and the BLM CFedS program. I have 35+ years of experience. I do not have a surveying degree. Back when I started into surveying, degree programs in this field were not offered. I attended Albuquerque Vocational Technical Institute which had a 2 month course on surveying. I went from wanting to be an architect to a surveyor during this course.

My disappointment with the surveying degree requirement by several states is that I do not meet the requirements to take the surveying test. I wanted to get a survey license in the state of New Mexico that I grew up in but I do not have a degree so therefore I cannot take the test. I do not meet their qualifications.

My years of experience and training are far more than an individual will ever get in a four year surveying degree program. Students with a degree can take the test in New Mexico almost straight out of school but I cannot even with my many years of experience.

I have taught surveying classes over the years and written many books on surveying mathematics. It's still not enough to meet the requirements for several states to get a license. The irony here is that there are a couple of colleges that are reviewing my mathematics books for inclusion in their study curriculum.

I have not found a college that will credit me for my years of experience to be applied towards a degree. I do not want to start from the beginning. I have been there done that.

I do feel that some type of training should be required for individuals wanting to be a surveyor. A school that is dedicated towards teaching surveying (degree or not) is of far more value than a school that just touches on the subject in a four year program.

A degree does not make you a surveyor. Working under a surveyor that really knows their stuff will make a person a better surveyor than a classroom full of students. A degree is just the starting point. The real learning begins after college.

Just some thoughts.

Jim Crume
www.cc4w.net

Sadly, Thomas Edison College In NJ, No Longer Has Surveying

Jim,

Slam dunk credits you would have received for every course you taught.

Credits for life experience.

Credits for authoring articles and texts.

Credits for passing the PLS exam.

What formal surveying training you had could be converted to college credits.

If you were lacking in specific knowledge, you could take a distance learning course from elsewhere and apply it there. They could be thriving now with the upturn in distance learning surveying available.

You probably could have had an AS in surveying in the wink of an eye and well on the way to a BS.

I looked into their program before signing on at NJIT in 1999.

Paul in PA

Students With A Degree Need Four Years Of Experience In NM

Albeit, the experience can be acquired prior to the degree.

Paul in PA

Education - my revised perspective - another "right" answer

Thanks to those who read, think, and post. I believe that assimilating and sharing ideas helps everyone.

Within the broad scope of surveying, the myriad of possible activities and alternatives for getting the "right" education is overwhelming. Consider that the biggest benefit of education (formal or otherwise) is learning how to learn! And we interact with society by using and/or sharing what we learn.

So, what is the motivation for learning? Is it using our knowledge to:

1. Satisfy our curiosity?
2. Impress others?
3. Earn a living?
4. Become wealthy?
5. Help associates/colleagues?
6. Enhance our profession?
7. Build a better community?
8. Other . . .

Although any reason above might be legitimate, I suggest that part of our satisfaction (or success) in life is determined by who we ask to judge our efforts.

Here again, there are probably as many "right" answers as readers. But, we each need to answer to ourselves. With regard to surveying education, am I trying to meet the expectations (or gain the approval) of the . . .

a. Boss?
b. Teacher/professor?
c. Spouse/significant other?
d. Registration board?
e. Political party?
f. Credit union (or bank)?
g. Church/God?

Before we leave this philosophical foray, I'll ask you to also consider . . . What is my attidude toward those looking for my approval and how do I interact with them? Again, with regard to surveying, how do I . .

- Motivate members of my survey crew?
- Inspire subordinates to contribute constructively to a team effort?
- Convince someone that getting a BS in surveying is worth the cost/effort?
- Grade the papers/exams of my students?
- Get others to do quality work?
- Evaluate the education record of persons applying to take the licensure test?
- Maintain the integrity of the licensing process?
- Promote the right/deserving person?

When I stop and think about the opportunities the surveying profession has provided me, I am humbled and very grateful to those many, many persons who have helped me and to those who have tolerated my curiosity (stirring the pot). Thank you!!!

Education - my revised perspective - another "right" answer

> When I stop and think about the opportunities the surveying profession has provided me, I am humbled and very grateful to those many, many persons who have helped me and to those who have tolerated my curiosity (stirring the pot). Thank you!!!

I like that statement very much. Nicely phrased.

Shawn

If I had my way, the surveying courses would be at least 8 hours a day 5 days a week. Unfortunately, not everyone in the program will become a land surveyor. Many go on into construction management, environmental sciences, architecture, etc... Those students really just need a basic understanding of what they are asking for from the land surveyor.

I assigned reading a couple of magazine articles as homework. The students then submitted a summary of the article for grading. After reading the submissions, I fully understand the need for some of the English and Humanities courses that are heavy on writing assignments.

One of the assignments was based on one of your articles - thank you very much for the great information!! Many of the students really understood and enjoyed your perspective.

Sorry, 3 Hours Of Lab = 1 Hour Of Lecture Credit

>
> Also 1 hour of lecture should have 3 hours of homework.
>

Most of my real classes were a between 5 and 10 hours of homework per hour of lecture.

> If I had my way, the surveying courses would be at least 8 hours a day 5 days a week. Unfortunately, not everyone in the program will become a land surveyor. Many go on into construction management, environmental sciences, architecture, etc... Those students really just need a basic understanding of what they are asking for from the land surveyor.
>
I understand that. For those disciplines it would make no sense to have an intense two year survey program. Just like it wouldn't make sense for a surveyor to attend a two year intensive civil engineering program, even though (what I envision) a two year intensive surveying program should include aspects of civil engineering.

> I assigned reading a couple of magazine articles as homework. The students then submitted a summary of the article for grading. After reading the submissions, I fully understand the need for some of the English and Humanities courses that are heavy on writing assignments.
>
I've heard that argument before relating to engineers and totally agree. High school graduates should have an understanding of sentence structure and grammar and spelling before leaving high school. Of course we can discuss "could have" "would have" and "should have" all day long without addressing the reality that "it isn't". Perhaps a business communication class would be advisable. Of course, all of this is just one lone voice decrying a lucrative structure, so it's kind of just urination in the wind. (Remember the second largest source of debt in the US is student loans - a sobering thought that suggests there are considerable financial interests in maintaining the status quo). Please know that this is not intended to be degrading to you or your work with your students, Jon. In fact it is in agreement with the assertion from your opening sentence that surveying students need more time with the right professors in the right courses to really achieve the benefits higher education is entirely capable of offering. I respect your work!

> One of the assignments was based on one of your articles - thank you very much for the great information!! Many of the students really understood and enjoyed your perspective.
Jon, I'm truly humbled by that.