There is a company called Ranger Engineering Consulting that specializes in building 3D GPS machine control models. They have an interesting affiliate program for Surveyors and Engineers. I spoke with them and they explained that for those surveyors and engineers that are not currently selling machine control models and want nothing to do with building models they will build the models for you. They give you a discounted price and let you mark it up as much as you want. They have a tiered discount structure that is dependent on the about of work you push their way. What do you think? Is this something worth trying? I'm curious if any of you are currently selling machine control models and what kind of success you are having. If you want to check their website here is the address http://www.ranger.engineering/
I was really was hoping to get some honest opinions here. Does any one think this is a good idea? Why or why not?
I see a ton of liability with little profit margin. You'll be certifying work over which you have little or no direct control or knowledge, unless you invest the time to rigorously check the model. Unlike an aerial topo, in which spot checks on the ground are likely to reveal any blunders, a 3D model that has even a modest goof can result in substantial rework costs.
My 2 cents, since you asked.
I agree with Jim,
I have built a a handful of 3d models and they do take a far amount of time to check. Like Jim said the slightest error can cause major problems. I have noticed over the past year that most contractors we work with have someone in house that builds the models.
From their website:
"Ranger EngineeringÛªs Stamp Ready ModelÛªs are ready for those states that do require a Û÷stampedÛª model and for those who just want that level of quality. We take the time to build all of our models correctly, however, with our Stamp Ready ModelÛªs, we take even more time."
You can pay us $X for a sort of correct model or $2X for the even more correct model. Nice
"At this time, we do not stamp our own models. We get the project so squeaky clean that your resident engineer can Û÷sealÛª the model without any concerns."
Well...no concerns other than violating the licensing laws by sealing a work product that they weren't in responsible charge of producing.
Umm... Shouldn't the design model be part of the deliverable of the engineering plans? I thought that was what that Civil3d program thingy that costs thousands upon thousands of dollars was for.
Bow Tie Surveyor, post: 331830, member: 6939 wrote: Umm... Shouldn't the design model be part of the deliverable of the engineering plans?
Twenty yeas ago you hired a PE to prepare buildable improvement plans, now you hire a PE to prepare approvable improvement plans. Constructability is a downstream problem.
James Fleming, post: 331829, member: 136 wrote: From their website:
... At this time, we do not stamp our own models. ...
Translation: we don't got no stamps, neeeds edumacation for dat
Bow Tie Surveyor, post: 331830, member: 6939 wrote: Umm... Shouldn't the design model be part of the deliverable of the engineering plans? I thought that was what that Civil3d program thingy that costs thousands upon thousands of dollars was for.
Machine models are a form of stakeout.
I'm not so much worried about the stamped ready models as my state does not require PEs to stamp the models. I have had these guys build a model for me in the past and their work was good. They caught a few errors from the civil which was good and the model was the best I've seen. As far as the liability question, wouldn't they retain that liability since they built the model. I would think that if there was a problem legally they own the model and it would fall on their shoulders. I'm not a lawyer but I do know that the model is their intellectual property, thus their liability.
In short, I don't question the quality of work from these guys. They are really good. The PE stuff doesn't apply to me.
I do question if it is worth my time add this service for my clients. Looking at the numbers I wouldn't make a ton per model but it is added income that I did have coming in prior.
Thoughts?
quote from James above "Twenty yeas ago you hired a PE to prepare buildable improvement plans, now you hire a PE to prepare approvable improvement plans. Constructability is a downstream problem. "
It seems it was twenty years ago I complained to my engineer about the quality of her offices plans, and her reply was, " what is your problem? The plans made it through all plan checks with the local overseeing agencies and were approved for construction!" I too always thought that plans were created to help construct, not to be a permitting function. It hasn't got any better in those twenty years I'm sorry to say. Jp
takeoffmat, post: 331863, member: 9638 wrote: As far as the liability question, wouldn't they retain that liability since they built the model. I would think that if there was a problem legally they own the model and it would fall on their shoulders. I'm not a lawyer but I do know that the model is their intellectual property, thus their liability. Thoughts?
Qui facit per alium facit per se
If you are charging a fee to recommend and arrange a subcontractor prepared service, then you are being paid for your consultancy and are subject to vicarious liability for hiring a negligent subcontractor. In this situation, were the client to suffer damages based on a problem with the model, the only reason they have the model in the first place is because of your action.
Sounds kind of shady to me. If they are so good, why do they need middle men to sell their services?
If you are advertising to sell a product, you have primary responsibility for the quality of the product.
If there is a major problem with the product you provided, the client sues you directly. That gets resolved in court, then you have to turn around and sue the person you subcontracted to do the work. Do they in turn subcontract the work to India? Sounds like potentially a lot of attorney fees to actually see that the subcontractor bears the brunt of the liability.
Personally if I saw a market for modeling, I would jump in and produce the product myself.
If there is room for a middle man, there must be some potential profit.
James thank you. That is solid information. So what about Dealers who resell models? I guess they are taking upon them all that liability. Why would they do that for small profits in compared to the equipment they are selling? I get that some of them use the added models to help sell the equipment but you would think that the add liability that you are talking about would would negate any potential sale.
imaudigger- you do realize that the machine control model market is a multi million dollar market and is exploding right now. I understand the legal concerns but I wouldn't say that it is shady. It's just another revenue stream for them as a business. Every business is trying to expand their clientele and there tons of affiliate programs out there across all areas of business. Its funny how most people buy things online and never realize that it was drop shipped by another company. That is a huge part of the Amazon business model. I don't think most people would say Amazon is shady.
My experience is that very few people, in any field, think about amortizing potential future liability costs within their current fee structure.
I do quite a few machine control models. In my neck of the woods you have to be a licensed surveyor or engineer to build models. I have ran into several times where I have lost clients due to unlicensed folks in my state or even folks licensed in other states but not in my state because of price, I price a machine control model more than if I were going to stake it on the ground, because instead of being liable for a couple hundred stakes you are now liable for every square in of ground covered. I also turn down a lot because they are simply not buildable from the plans or cad without a ton of going back and forth with the designer, who usually dont have time to answer your questions. Besides you are just building a model, right?
James Fleming, post: 331831, member: 136 wrote: Twenty yeas ago you hired a PE to prepare buildable improvement plans, now you hire a PE to prepare approvable improvement plans. Constructability is a downstream problem.
THAT IS THE QUOTE OF THE DAY!
liability: you use it (or resell it) you own it.
have your client deal direct. give them several options, do not recommend any other provider unless you want to be directly involved (in court)
give your client a proposal to set control, do as-builts, etc. if you don't know enough to do it yourself learn or stay out of it.
takeoffmat, post: 331879, member: 9638 wrote: imaudigger- you do realize that the machine control model market is a multi million dollar market and is exploding right now. I understand the legal concerns but I wouldn't say that it is shady. It's just another revenue stream for them as a business. Every business is trying to expand their clientele and there tons of affiliate programs out there across all areas of business. Its funny how most people buy things online and never realize that it was drop shipped by another company. That is a huge part of the Amazon business model. I don't think most people would say Amazon is shady.
We are looking at it from two different perspectives. You are considering the interpretation of engineering plans and subsequent digitizing for stake out a commodity good similar to what you would buy at WalMart or Amazon.
I am under the impression that many states consider this a professional service.
I don't see any professional services offered on Amazon, only commodity goods.
It is just my opinion, you are welcome to yours.