The Only KS Info I Have Is For Butler Community College
> ...I am not an attorney (and I locate boundary lines, not property lines).
Usually most clients want their property lines located.
(Just jumped in for the snide comment. 😛 Sorry, I have no real advice for teaching boundary law.) Well, maybe one piece of advice....I took a number of college courses from one survey teacher. He was pretty arrogant, and chased a number of students away. I would advise against that kind of attitude (I mean if you do have that kind of attitude; no accusations here.)
> I'm about to teach Survey Law for the first time. The textbook will be "Land Surveying Law, 4th edition, by Keen." Any tips?
I have not read your proposed text yet. However, be sure to teach actual property boundary law as it applies to land surveying. DO NOT perpetuate the many "surveyor myths" that have been advanced by past "experts" whose incorrect views have infiltrated our once proud profession., in fact, expose and defeat them.
Good luck.
Mr. Cantu
Is not a newcomer to the board. He's contributed in the past and has done a lot of lurking. He's also a big time geocacher. So, guys, please play a bit nicer in this sand pile. No need to get snippy.
Mr. Cantu
> Is not a newcomer to the board. He's contributed in the past and has done a lot of lurking. He's also a big time geocacher. So, guys, please play a bit nicer in this sand pile. No need to get snippy.
i don't feel that i did. i simply outlined my professor's best teaching qualities in his two courses. best of luck, professor cantu
Mr. Cantu
Geocaching? Did someone say geocaching? I found one yesterday. ...So far, for an online forum, I haven't heard anythiing offensive.
Mr. Cantu
Well geez, Holy Cow, he is from Kansas......I mean, how nice can you be to a guy from Kansas?:-D
Definately real world examples of application of the law and rules of surveying is superior than just talking theory. Tillotson does this in spades in his book. Most any surveyor with a few decades of practice will have examples of surveys in his background that show how anomalies were resolved on specific surveys, and could write a similar book based upon real world facts.
Put them to sleep with theory, or get them involved with real world applications and make them engaged their brains. An active brain is never apathetic or bored.
Ask at the local surveyors assoc meeting for specific examples of parcels that presented a need of other than standard analysis. Whenever "it depends" is in play, there is a chance to learn something beyond theory.
Mr. Cantu
It's Kansas. I can see the west coast AND the east coast from the top of the nearest prairie dog mound.
Amen to that and the once great book of Clarks is no more!
My opinion of course.
Keith
I stopped at the Fourth Edition of Clarks. It's uninfected and still useful.
How about an apology to Mr Cantu, Mr Paul in PA?
> I have compiled a list of as many active survey education programs as I can...
Would you mind posting this?
Please and thank you!
I have a slight different take on this (although I generally agree with everything Mr Allen says).
I think that some of the books such as Robilard and Bouman should be read by all. I think that a surveyor needs to read the philosophies and logic in these guys' writings. One might keep in mind that Mr. Robilard is both an expert at law and at land surveying. He has testified and convinced courts of his positions. His books have been accepted in courts (if I am not mistaken) as evidence and standards of practice.
If you are going to become a professional surveyor, I think you need to understand the different philosophies and positions of many of the published experts. If you are going to argue your particular case on how you established your boundaries, you need to have made your decisions in a way that you can defend and in a way that you can explain why your decision might not be the same thing the opposing side is citing from a book that you haven't even read.
Which brings to mind something I think should be taught in a boundary law curriculum. (but perhaps a more advanced class than boundary law 101). That would be for the students to be given a set of circumstances in a survey and that they do the appropriate research and present their conclusions and show why they came to those conclusions. One student might come to a conclusion that, for instance, in a particular set of circumstances, the Center of section is at the intersection of opposing corners, and another might come to the conclusion that an existing monument holds even though it wasn't set by the means described in the BLM manual of instructions. Grading would be based on how well they argue and show their logic and research more strongly than what their specific conclusion was.
Surveying and boundary is not a cut-and-dried yes-no test. Coming up with answers to questions that have not definitive answer is what makes land surveying a profession and not a trade.
Okay, that is what I am thinking. Sorry for the bit of rambling. (I wouldn't do well in the "concise" part of the exam).
edit: of course in Kansas, that probably isn't a real issue. I think you can just set up on a prairie-dog mound at one corner, sight the opposite corner and set straddles. 😉
You are right! 😉
Adam,
You, of course, are right on. 😉
I would add that the study of the works of Brown, Wilson, Robillard, Clark, Lucas, etc.) is very important. However, as with all study, it should not be done with unquestioned reverence and acceptance. One really starts to learn when one digs deeper than what has been laid on the plate before him. All secondary sources should be read with a healthy dose of skepticism, but only if the skepticism is further questioned by further study.
For example, I have been reading the "older" treatises for many years (re-reading Clark, 7th now) and one thing I find everytime I read them is a dose of unsupported and/or unsubstantiated and even contradicting opinions. For instance, In Clark's 7th, Sec. 4-18, apparently Robillard is offering his opinion that a portion of Justice Cooley's writings and decisions are "outdated". He has cited no decision or authority for making such an assertion. This is very dangerous. If a fledging surveyor takes this as gospel and runs with it, he may be sadly disappointed when a judge rules against him. An even greater danger is if a court (or some pseudo-court) errantly runs with the unsupported "opinion" of Robillard, then many, many decades of common law is turned on its head, creating an unimaginable amount of boundary chaos.
The Only KS Info I Have Is For Butler Community College
>"I locate boundary lines, not property lines"
You will have to educate me on what the difference is. I know many surveyors who will define property lines as those lines that define the limits of title and boundary lines as those lines that are described in the deed.
Except where new lines replace old lines by operation of an unwritten conveyance, I have not read where a court has made the distinction of lines per the deed and lines of ownership.
I have seen none that actually define "property line" as something different from "boundary line", and have seen countless many that seem to use the terms interchangeably.
Not meaning to insult, but are you sure you're ready to teach this class if you create a basic distinction that the courts do not?
The Only KS Info I Have Is For Butler Community College
I have my own bias about "property lines" as, according to some, those lines that may be monumented and or established by the landowners, that do not follow exactly the real "boundary lines" as determined by exact laying out on the ground, those protracted lines on the original GLO survey plat are "property lines"
Thus two sets of lines, one the real boundary lines and the others simply "property lines"!
The court case in Florida, Lozeau is the epitome of this bogus theory.
Andy, Surveying EDU List
Bookmarks
ABET Accredited Programs Search.url
ACSM American Congress on Surveying and Mapping - Colleges-Universities.url
AL - Troy Univ Surveying and Geomatics BS.url
Alaska-edu Geomatics.url
AR- Univ Ark Monticello-Land Surveying Tech AS.url
AR-UArkCCMorrilton Surveying AAS.url
AZ-Phoenix College- Surveying Tech AAS.url
CA-Evergreen Valley Col- CE Tech Surveying Certificate.url
CA-Santa Rosa Jr Coll- Geospatial Tech Certificate.url
Cal Poly Civil Engineering Geospatial.url
Cal State Fresno Geomatics Engineering.url
CO-Metro State Denver- Surveying and Mapping.url
Course Sequence Geomatics Technology College of Technology Idaho State University.url
FL Florida Atlantic U Geomatics Engineering BS.url
FL Univ of Florida Geomatics.url
GA - Southern Polytechnic BS Surveying and Mapping.url
GA-Middle Georgia Col - Surveying Cert & AS.url
http--www.abe.msstate.edu-Undergraduate-AETB-Flow%20Charts-AETB_Land_Surveying_new.pdf.url
ID, Idaho State U Geomatics Technology BS.url
IL-Southern Il U Civil Engineering Surveying BS.url
IN - Vincennes U-Surveying AS.url
IN-Purdue-Geomatics Eng-BS CE-LS Minor MS PhD.url
KS - Pittsburg State Univ. Const Eng Tech - BSET.url
KS-Butler Community Coll - Engineering - Surveying.url
KY-N KY U-BS Construction Management - Surveying.url
LA-Nicholls St U Geomatics BS.url
MD - Towson Geography and Environmental Planning.url
ME-U Maine Surveying Eng Tech.url
MI-Ferris State- Surveying Engineering.url
Miss St U-Ag & Biological Eng BS Some Land Surveying.url
MN-St. Cloud State University Surveying.url
MO Univ Science & Tech, BS CE + 12 Surveying.url
MO-Metro Comm Col-Longview- Land Survey AAS.url
MT-Flathead Valley Comm Col- Surveying AAS.url
NC-Asheville-Buncombe Tech Comm Coll Surveying Tech AAS.url
NC-Central Piedmont Comm Coll Surveying Tech AAS.url
NC-NC A&T St Univ - Geomatics BS.url
ND State College of Science, CE & Surveying Tech.url
NH U of Civil Technology Surveying & Mapping AAS.url
NJ-Essex Co Col Const Eng Tech - Land Surveying AAS.url
NJ-Gloucester Co Col - CET - Land Surveying AAS.url
NJ-Thomas Edison State College ASAST in Surveying.url
NJ-Thomas Edison State College BSAST in Surveying.url
NJIT Engineering Technology Surveying Engineering Technology.url
NMSU Surveying Engineering.url
NV-Great Basin College- BAS Land Surveying-Geomatics.url
NY-Alfred State SUNY Surveying Eng Tech (BS).url
NY-Mohawk Valley CC- Surveying Tech.url
NY-Paul Smith's College- Surveying AAS.url
NY-SUNY Coll of Env. Science and Forestry - The Ranger School - AS.url
OH-Cincinnati St-CET Surveying AS (BS with N KY U).url
OH-Columbus St Comm Coll- Surveying AAS.url
OH-Univ of Akron Surveying & Mapping.url
Ohio St U Engineering & Geodetic Science.url
OK-OSU-OKC Civil-Surveying Tech AAS.url
OR-Or St U - GIS Certificate Program.url
OR-Umpqua Comm Coll-Eng Tech Surveying AS - Transfer to OIT BS CE.url
Oregon Institute of Technology Geomatics.url
Penn State Wilkes-Barre Surveying Programs.url
Pennsylvania College of Technology Surveying Tech AAS.url
PR, Univ of Puerto Rico Civil Engineering and Surveying.url
SC-Greenville Technical Coll- Geomatics Tech.url
SD - SE Tech Inst - LS AS Science Technology.url
TN-ETSU BS Surveying MS Eng Tech.url
TX, Odessa Coll - Surveying AAS.url
TX-Texas A&M U Corpus Christi - Cert - Geomatics & GIS.url
TX-U of Houston-Surveying Eng Tech BS.url
TX-Undergraduate Majors The University of Texas of the Permian Basin.url
TX-UT Tyler-Surveying & Mapping AS - BS Industrial Tech.url
UNB - Geodesy & Geomatics Engineering.url
UT-Salt Lake Comm Coll-Surveying AAS.url
UT-Utah Valley Univ- Geomatics Program.url
VA - Old Dominion Dept of Eng Tech.url
WA-Bates Tech Coll-Land Surveying AT.url
WA-Renton Tech Coll-Land Survey Tech AAS.url
WI - Nicolet College AAS Worksheet.url
WV, Glenville State Coll BS Land Surveying Tech.url
WV-U Civil and Environmental Engineering 9 Credits of Surveying.url
WY-Sheridan College Surveying Tech AAS.url
WY-U Wyoming Land Surveying - Course Descriptions.url
If these do not come out as working links, email me and I will reply with a bookmark file.
Paul in PA
Andy, email Me
I will in turn send you a file with my surveying EDU bookmarks that you can import in WinIE.
Paul in PA
Andy, Surveying EDU List
T H Harris Tech College in Opelousas, Louisiana has a AAS Civil Survey program.
Robert, I Added TH Harris To My List
Paul in PA
