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3D Aerials From UAS Software - Legal Question

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(@mccracker)
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Outside of obtaining the Part 107, I am having a tough time finding any type of legislature regarding the limits of what a drone pilot and software is a allowed to produce without holding a professional surveying license. With software out there such as Drone Deploy, Altizure, etc., if you are strictly flying and using the software for viewing purposes other than actual measurements, is there a legal boundary being broken? Seems that creating a 3D "map" for lack of a better term, of a piece of property, with no dimensions would fall outside of measuring, as the user is relying sole on the software to produce the image and may or may not fall into the exact law boundary defined by measuring. To say that a user of the software mentioned above must either be a licensed surveyor, or working under the direction of one, seems excessive for certain flights. I can see both sides of the argument, that an unlicensed person using the software could cause harm in that what is being produced may be completely misinterpreted and create a real problem. On the other hand, it seems that simply creating a 3D image of a piece of property with no dimensions for viewing purposes only falls outside of any risk and can be done either recreational or for profit with proper business licensing and the part 107. The list of businesses that had complaints filed against them in the state of Florida were overwhelmingly UAS companies, and I can only imagine they were using the features to create a product that fell under the requirement of a PLS. Any thoughts on drone images being used outside of the measuring business, for viewing only? Or as site development updates with a 3D twist?

 
Posted : 02/04/2018 4:51 pm
(@a-harris)
Posts: 8761
 

Regardless of what you are creating, when it is show and given location in relation to a boundary, that is land surveying and requires a license.

There are a bunch of homeowners that are willing to pay for some bird's eye views of their ranchette.

 
Posted : 02/04/2018 7:35 pm
(@jkinak)
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It depends on your State laws.?ÿ

I believe Mr. Harris has it right for most, if not all, jurisdictions. I'm not aware of any State where "if you are strictly flying and using the software for viewing purposes other than actual measurements" falls under the definition of land surveying (or whatever term your legislature chose).?ÿ

Anybody practice where that activity falls under the definition?

 
Posted : 02/04/2018 10:17 pm
(@leegreen)
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Also, beware of the user agreements stated by cloud processing sites such as Drone Deploy and Map Made Easy. Which?ÿoften state that they reserve the right to re-distribute the photos from your data set.?ÿ

Around here I find a lot of sUAS pilots using such services, not know that agreement. Also, they often do NOT use any ground control points or ground truthing. They have no idea what quality data they are giving their clients. Most often use is for Barrow Pit Quantities.

?ÿ

 
Posted : 03/04/2018 2:16 am
(@mccracker)
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Posted by: leegreen

Also, beware of the user agreements stated by cloud processing sites such as Drone Deploy and Map Made Easy. Which?ÿoften state that they reserve the right to re-distribute the photos from your data set.?ÿ

Around here I find a lot of sUAS pilots using such services, not know that agreement. Also, they often do NOT use any ground control points or ground truthing. They have no idea what quality data they are giving their clients. Most often use is for Barrow Pit Quantities.

?ÿ

This is where I can see great risk and the use of this stuff requiring a license, and the proper knowledge of how to measure regardless of the method. What are the risks you see with allowing those services to re-distribute the data? Also, where is it being re-distributed?

 
Posted : 03/04/2018 2:50 am
(@mccracker)
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I feel that there are always loopholes in these issues and I don't want to get involved in anything unethical or illegal, that is my purpose for asking the great folks on here. I am not trying to poke holes in the law or disrespect what the professional drone users do in anyway. I would very much like to get into doing drone mapping and do it professionally for myself or someone in the future, but would like to fly a few places just to get some experience using different software. I am not licensed and don't want to ruffle any feathers or end up with a fine. Here is a more specific example of what I am trying to sort out.?ÿ

This is the St. Ignatius Loyola in Denver, submitted by a user on the Altizure site.?ÿSee It Here?ÿ?ÿI'm not a fan of this service, "Altizure" because it doesn't seem very professional, though it seems a lot of folks around the world are using it as such. Very much like YouTube. Anyway here is an image produced by their app

3dchurch

The app also has a model very similar to Google Earth, which is also dabbling into the 3D surface modeling, which I see as sort what I am asking about, as in GE is free and anyone can use it for viewing disregarding actual dimensions. A lot of companies even use GE to measure roofs for roofing quotes....?ÿ

Here is their 3D image overlaid on the blurred out earth surface

3dchurchearthview

?ÿ

I'm of the opinion a product like this can be seen as a survey accessory, helping to illustrate the features in the survey area.?ÿ

 
Posted : 03/04/2018 3:20 am
(@alaska80)
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I am a part 107 pilot. While I am?ÿ not a registered?ÿ surveyor?ÿ I do have have over 20 years of survey experience working mainly in the construction industry.?ÿ

It is important to understand that?ÿphotogrammetry in its own right requires a degree. All these online processing services and even professional software, they are using (structure from motion) methods to create these point clouds.

To do things right and ensure a quality product there are a lot of variables that need to be taken into account. Shadows, water bodies, the position of the sun. the type of camera and all the settings, focal lengths, and refraction corrections of said camera and many more variables.?ÿ

There is no software and especially no web based service that can account for all these variable using a algorithm.?ÿ

Is you're drones camera properly calibrated?

Are you following the minimum standards for aerial mapping??ÿ What where the considerations behind those?ÿ standards, also what part of those standards need to be changed to ensure a quality survey from a low flying UAV with a cheap camera as opposed to a high altitude aircraft with a 300k dollar camera?

Are you setting ground control and then confirming the topography with QC checks??ÿ Without these proofs you are not meeting any standard at all.?ÿ

Most registered surveyors I know are not qualified to perform all these task on their own. It takes a highly qualified team to do it right.?ÿ

Right now the drone industry is sort of like the wild west, it is in its infancy and standards have not yet been written.

Standards will be written soon enough as it is necessary to protect the public from a bunch of cowboys and 600.00 toys from walmart, now they want to be cartographers, surveyors, and?ÿphotogrammetrists on the weekends.?ÿ

In my opinion if you do not and have folks with the proper degrees on the team.... Stick with family photos.?ÿ

?ÿ

 
Posted : 06/04/2018 2:32 pm
(@mccracker)
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Posted by: Alaska80

I am a part 107 pilot. While I am?ÿ not a registered?ÿ surveyor?ÿ I do have have over 20 years of survey experience working mainly in the construction industry.?ÿ

It is important to understand that?ÿphotogrammetry in its own right requires a degree. All these online processing services and even professional software, they are using (structure from motion) methods to create these point clouds.

To do things right and ensure a quality product there are a lot of variables that need to be taken into account. Shadows, water bodies, the position of the sun. the type of camera and all the settings, focal lengths, and refraction corrections of said camera and many more variables.?ÿ

There is no software and especially no web based service that can account for all these variable using a algorithm.?ÿ

Is you're drones camera properly calibrated?

Are you following the minimum standards for aerial mapping??ÿ What where the considerations behind those?ÿ standards, also what part of those standards need to be changed to ensure a quality survey from a low flying UAV with a cheap camera as opposed to a high altitude aircraft with a 300k dollar camera?

Are you setting ground control and then confirming the topography with QC checks??ÿ Without these proofs you are not meeting any standard at all.?ÿ

Most registered surveyors I know are not qualified to perform all these task on their own. It takes a highly qualified team to do it right.?ÿ

Right now the drone industry is sort of like the wild west, it is in its infancy and standards have not yet been written.

Standards will be written soon enough as it is necessary to protect the public from a bunch of cowboys and 600.00 toys from walmart, now they want to be cartographers, surveyors, and?ÿphotogrammetrists on the weekends.?ÿ

In my opinion if you do not and have folks with the proper degrees on the team.... Stick with family photos.?ÿ

?ÿ

Great points many have not taken into account. I like the wild west analogy, very fitting and explains perfectly why there is little information on the subject regarding specifics. There are many cowboys and $600 toys from walmart out there for sure and I don't aim to be one either! Just seeking valuable input such as this!?ÿ

 
Posted : 09/04/2018 5:10 pm
(@d-bendell)
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So long as you're not including boundary lines and you're not claiming specific accuracy levels within the model and you disclose that, you aren't illegal or unethical. It can be seen as a loophole I suppose, but a part 107 pilot offering a product valued by a client for what it is can be paid for that without a license. I've heard licensed guys say that "people shouldn't be doing work traditionally done by surveyors" without a license and also say "surveyors should be embracing these new methods because they're gonna hurt themselves with that mentality because eventually those who do utilize new technogy will be able to leave surveyors out of the process of obtaining certain data that does not required a stamp or licensed surveyor's signature." Just adding my .02 cents to the discussion. Legally/Ethically I don't believe it is a problem as long as you don't mislead clients or misrepresent your deliverable product. A disclosure statement your client signs would save save you fear of liability if they misuse the model or imagery you produce.

?ÿ

?ÿ

 
Posted : 10/04/2018 1:16 pm
(@d-bendell)
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I have ground truthed quite a few models and orthos produced with a drone using GCPs and also without. There is good enough accuracy for many client's needs in my opinion. Where do people find these services/products if surveyors themselves don't offer it or turn their nose up at the concept??? Additionally if there is a disdain for the technology or those using it what is going to result from that perception? Just some thoughts as I've tuned into many debates and arguments about what UAS pilots should be allowed to do or offer.?ÿ

 
Posted : 10/04/2018 1:26 pm
(@jkinak)
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D. Bendell

Please be sure to indicate what state(s) you are talking about when you say "So long as you're not including boundary lines and you're not claiming specific accuracy levels within the model and you disclose that, you aren't illegal or unethical."?ÿ

That statement is simply NOT true for all jurisdictions - I don't have the stats at hand but it may not even be true for the majority of jurisdictions. You have to know the law where you are practicing.?ÿ

If you are talking about Florida - it looks like an unlicensed person making a map showing improvements or elevations using SFM would be violating the law .?ÿ

472.005ƒ?ŸDefinitions.ƒ??As used in ss. 472.001-472.037:

?ÿ(3)ƒ?Ÿƒ??Surveyor and mapperƒ? includes the term ƒ??professional surveyor and mapperƒ? and means a person who is registered to engage in the practice of surveying and mapping under ss. 472.001-472.037. For the purposes of this statute, a surveyor and mapper means a person who determines and displays the facts of size, shape, topography, tidal datum planes, legal or geodetic location or relation, and orientation of improved or unimproved real property through direct measurement or from certifiable measurement through accepted photogrammetric procedures.

(4)(b)ƒ?ŸThe practice of surveying and mapping also includes, but is not limited to, photogrammetric control; orientation of improved or unimproved real property and appurtenances and personal property attached thereto,...

You'll need to read and comprehend it all before you know if you are in compliance. The law can be found at?ÿ http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&URL=0400-0499/0472/0472.html

 
Posted : 10/04/2018 3:12 pm
(@d-bendell)
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^

^

^

Exactly why there is so much debate and conjecture over this subject. I don't at all disagree with your copy & paste of the statutes but if I was to be a part 107 pilot who provides a real estate agent a couple neat photos from an orbit around a property and they choose to use the image in their marketing and list dimensions of a pool for example, would that make the pilot who processes/sells images a crook? Perhaps there is a request for an ortho and they want something with better resolution and recent date versus Google Earth does that make the pilot a violator??? Shouldn't Google Earth therefore be guilty of breaking the laws in said jurisdictions unless they have a licensed surveyor on staff? Do they not provide elevation data and have tools for measuring

I see your point and I don't claim to be an expert on law or a licensed surveyor but I have seen a lot of feisty discussion and frustrated people go back and forth over this subject. I don't have time to engage beyond a few paragraphs and logical questions and I really don't care too hard overall. I'm just saying construction companies are already doing this without surveyors so my thoughts are mostly about survey people shaking their fist at anyone without a license and how it's likely going to alienate people and make surveyors in general look like sour old grumpy curmudgeons.

I could be wrong that's fine, but I'm not ashamed to add my honest opinion to the discussion.

?ÿ ?ÿ

 
Posted : 10/04/2018 6:22 pm
(@thebionicman)
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The triggers of what is and isn't very by State. If you provide a map with no boundary it will probably be ok. Then again if you label dimensions and volumes on it you are likely over the line. Pictures for real estate agents wouldn't be a problem in the States I work in as far as the Board. Some of them you would be in violation of privacy statutes as the 'mapping' exemption would not apply.

 
Posted : 10/04/2018 7:30 pm
(@alaska80)
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D Bendell

I think a lot of us 107 pilots?ÿ need to look at the big picture.... There is a market for our services. As I am a surveyor myself, by having the skills utilize drones and SFM software is a big bonus on my resume. There are defiantly job opportunities that the part 107 provides.?ÿ I too have proofed drone surveys (over a hundred) that is how many areas I have mapped so far.... And we proof every one of them.

I have done enough to know that they are quite accurate in bare earth regions. Where photogrammetry fails... is in areas where there is vegetation or overhead obstructions.?ÿ When you have to?ÿguarantee 1' contours over a larger area for design purposes, this is where you will run into problems.?ÿ

I can promise if you go and proof areas near reflective waters, or near corridors with multiple tall transmission lines you will find area's where the Data ( at least in its raw form)?ÿ is off more then a couple feet.... as soon as the images get away from these (areas of noise) the point cloud will clamp back to the ground and correct itself, Therefore unless you know where to look ... you might never even catch the blunder'd measurements.?ÿ

This can all be done and the point clouds can be cleaned and produce an accurate product.... But it takes work and can be a tedious process.?ÿ

In large areas of dense vegetation you literally have to cut the point clouds out and take manual ground shots... a bush or 2 can be cut out in post process easy enough.?ÿ

Regardless it requires boots on the ground to proof the data and fill in the gaps where there areas of questionable data.... It also requires expensive software.... It is to be expected that a lot of surveyors are going to opt out of UAV use and choose to take grid shots manually.

I do not think this makes them cranky...... this is simply approaching the technology carefully. If everyone just started buying UAV's overnight we would have alot of poor quality product out there.. This would inevitably brand the technology as bogus. We have to have a reasonable expectation of the accuracy of these tools... There is a Time to use them. Then there is a time not to.

Its invaluable for the imagery alone..... but that is also going to make the office folks want to use this imagery as base maps and if the projection is off this can lead to issues in of itself. In the survey and engineering world you should never be flying without ground control... You're asking for problems if you do.?ÿ It only take one Oh SH??

Therefore If our industry does not set standard's?ÿ and adhere to them...one good oh Sh?? and no-one will trust the product we produce anymore.?ÿ

?ÿ

?ÿ

 
Posted : 10/04/2018 10:02 pm
(@d-bendell)
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All good discussion. I've had my part 107 for a couple years and have done enough to know you're right that it is a tool. Not a tool perfect for everything. A lot of expensive LAMP projects also fail to return good results around ditches and canals with overgrown banks and full of water. Obviously you need guys to get in there. I'm just pointing out that UAS pilots are producing "models" and not attempting to certify anything. Their clients coming to independent conclusions is not necessarily any violation at all especially if the product is just 2D/3D imagery and is being sold as such, not maps or ?ÿ3cm> data. Maybe the board in FL needs to hire a task force/goons to go around and institute some Gestapo tactics to shut down construction businesses from saving money and doing some work in house??ÿ

?ÿ

?ÿ

?ÿ

 
Posted : 11/04/2018 3:23 am
(@leegreen)
Posts: 2195
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Really you had your part 107 for a couple of years? I thought it just started in August of 2017, but I may be wrong.

 
Posted : 11/04/2018 3:42 am
(@alaska80)
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We were flying under a 333 exemption before part 107..... But I did get the part 107 (2 weeks) after Testing began.?ÿ im up for retest in September.... It does not fell that long does it?

 
Posted : 12/04/2018 12:56 am
(@alaska80)
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If a private company is willing to take liability, Well?ÿ they own it.

?ÿ I would be surprised if any mid sized company would do that however..... especially in the engineering and construction sector. The liability can easily run into millions. On the other hand if a guy owns a quarry and is just taking inventory then more power to him.... I bet that group is fairly small however... and they have been weighing and counting trucks for that same data for over a century. I doubt they will invest in a drone and software. The money is in design and construction.....?ÿ That is also where the liability is.

 
Posted : 12/04/2018 1:04 am
(@d-bendell)
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Part 107 rolled out August 2016 so that's true I guess it hasn't been a full two years. I still agree it is wise to read the statutes where you operate. Data for estimation and other preliminary steps including just imagery or documentation of a site not used as a survey could be defined that way. Its an interesting topic.?ÿ

 
Posted : 12/04/2018 4:24 am
(@thebionicman)
Posts: 4438
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Our local land-fill bought one. We have two local gravel companies using them too. These are just the ones I know of.?ÿ

These days you can get a legitimate SUAS and 'real' software together for a few thousand upfront and a few hundred a month. Insurance (backed by decent underweiters) can be purchased by the hour for under 15 dollars.

While the terrestrial lidar guys are bumping the price continually, ?ÿSUAS tech is plummeting in price. Our program is 6 months old and we are solid in the black. A quarry company can build a solid program for less than the cost of two monitoring sessions. The real problem is selling the buyer on the idea of auditing yourself...

 
Posted : 12/04/2018 7:05 am