aliquot, post: 431339, member: 2486 wrote: Dr. Elithorpe is very knowledgeable and a good teacher, and the program is great if you want to work for NGS or go on to geomatics graduate school, but it is seriously lacking in boundary law, just like all the ABET programs are.
I think it's great that they teach how to do least squares adjustments without a computer, but thas not really why most states licence us. I just had a conversation with a graduate of that program who was hell bent on moving a 1909 GLO brass cap 1 ft to match the record. It doesn't get any more basic than that.
Just out of curiosity, what program do you feel offer a different level of development in boundary law? As I stated above, I am currently taking classes at Great Basin. I did a lot of research before electing to go there. I compared lots of different options and the curriculums offered by different programs, both traditional and non-traditional. All of the ten or so that I took a good deep look at had either 8/9 or 12 credits of direct survey boundary law credit requirements. This is including a PLSS class. I didn't notice one requiring an in depth offering of classes in those subjects. Some additional credits where offered as electives, on an as needed basis.
I fully agree with the need for additional law classes being needed to keep situations such as your 1909 GLO cap being moved from even being an option. But to be perfectly honest, any PLSS class would have quickly quenched that urge. To be perfectly honest, that a lack of mentoring and professional oversight, not a knock on a specific school and program. That is an issue with licience holders having six sections corners in a township, and sitting behind a computer and breaking the township down. Then telling field crews to swing the metal detector and if you don't get a ring within a foot, beat a corner in. People may laugh and think that doesn't happen, but sadly it does and has happened.
In reality all that is needed to gain a license is meet some form of education requirement and have the ability to pass a test of minimum competency on a given day. Some of the biggest issues we have run into come from individuals that meet those requirements, from schools in Florida, Oregon, and ..... OMG, Texas. They all have a piece of paper on the wall that say they have meet those requirements. Once that piece of paper is on the wall is when the learning starts, and professional development begins. A couple of the people I look to as mentors and some of the most knowledgeable in boundary law never set foot in school after graduating high school.
jpb, post: 431401, member: 9284 wrote: Just out of curiosity, what program do you feel offer a different level of development in boundary law? As I stated above, I am currently taking classes at Great Basin. I did a lot of research before electing to go there. I compared lots of different options and the curriculums offered by different programs, both traditional and non-traditional. All of the ten or so that I took a good deep look at had either 8/9 or 12 credits of direct survey boundary law credit requirements. This is including a PLSS class. I didn't notice one requiring an in depth offering of classes in those subjects. Some additional credits where offered as electives, on an as needed basis.
I fully agree with the need for additional law classes being needed to keep situations such as your 1909 GLO cap being moved from even being an option. But to be perfectly honest, any PLSS class would have quickly quenched that urge. To be perfectly honest, that a lack of mentoring and professional oversight, not a knock on a specific school and program. That is an issue with licience holders having six sections corners in a township, and sitting behind a computer and breaking the township down. Then telling field crews to swing the metal detector and if you don't get a ring within a foot, beat a corner in. People may laugh and think that doesn't happen, but sadly it does and has happened.
In reality all that is needed to gain a license is meet some form of education requirement and have the ability to pass a test of minimum competency on a given day. Some of the biggest issues we have run into come from individuals that meet those requirements, from schools in Florida, Oregon, and ..... OMG, Texas. They all have a piece of paper on the wall that say they have meet those requirements. Once that piece of paper is on the wall is when the learning starts, and professional development begins. A couple of the people I look to as mentors and some of the most knowledgeable in boundary law never set foot in school after graduating high school.
The only program I know of that does a good job with boundary is the University of Wyoming. I know it is not an ABET accredited Surveying degree, but I believe you can now get a degree in applied science. I know many people in many states have had good luck qulaifiing for exams with a non surevying degree plus U.W. surveying classes.
The problem is the things tought in a couple of boundary classes are wiped out by all the other classes where significant figures and precision are the only goal. Another problem is that many programs require a PhD to teach. Since there are no Land Surveying graduate schools (only geomatics) the boundary classes are often tought by geomaticians.
I had an interaction with the professor of the PLSS class at one of the ABET programs. He thought BLM had made an error when they accepted the position of an original monument about 1 link off record.
I really think one PLSS class is insufficient. One class can be a great introduction, but can nearly scrape the surface of all the "exceptions " and case history, much less riparian boundaries and GLO surveyed grant boundaries. Once you have a licence there is nothing stopping you from surveying any boundary, even if all you know is what was in that one class.
I think more boundary classes would better protect the public than a full 3 credits on least squares.
When I was in Penn State's program, an attorney was a permanent member of the faculty. We had several classes where we were required to research case law--spending time in the bar association's law library, using Lexis-Nexis, and the like. Knud Hermansen came down from Maine to give a talk on boundary law that was sponsored by our honor society and to which we invited the local surveying community. Could there have been more legal emphasis? Yes, but it's an undergraduate degree, a springboard for learning. If you wanted to be a photogrammetrist, you'd have had only 2 or 3 classes at most on photogrammetry, remote sensing, etc. If you wanted to be a hydrographer, you'd have passing mentions to tidal datums in geodesy class and maybe exposure to instrument calibration in some field practicums.
In short, an undergraduate degree is not going to make anyone a fully formed anything, but should give someone the tools to pick a direction.
FrozenNorth, post: 431536, member: 10219 wrote: When I was in Penn State's program, an attorney was a permanent member of the faculty. We had several classes where we were required to research case law--spending time in the bar association's law library, using Lexis-Nexis, and the like. Knud Hermansen came down from Maine to give a talk on boundary law that was sponsored by our honor society and to which we invited the local surveying community. Could there have been more legal emphasis? Yes, but it's an undergraduate degree, a springboard for learning. If you wanted to be a photogrammetrist, you'd have had only 2 or 3 classes at most on photogrammetry, remote sensing, etc. If you wanted to be a hydrographer, you'd have passing mentions to tidal datums in geodesy class and maybe exposure to instrument calibration in some field practicums.
In short, an undergraduate degree is not going to make anyone a fully formed anything, but should give someone the tools to pick a direction.
Right, but the problem I have is that many states that only require a Land Surveyor licence for boundaries also require an ABET degree (with case by case exceptions), but ABET still looks at surveying as a branch of engineering, so if a program wants to keep its accreditation it can't really add too many boundary classes. It's too bad, because except for the process of searching for evidence, boundary law is ideally suited for class room instructuon.
The ABET programs do serve an important purpose, but it is not to educate boundary surveyors.
aliquot, post: 431533, member: 2486 wrote: The only program I know of that does a good job with boundary is the University of Wyoming. I know it is not an ABET accredited Surveying degree, but I believe you can now get a degree in applied science. I know many people in many states have had good luck qulaifiing for exams with a non surevying degree plus U.W. surveying classes.
The problem is the things tought in a couple of boundary classes are wiped out by all the other classes where significant figures and precision are the only goal. Another problem is that many programs require a PhD to teach. Since there are no Land Surveying graduate schools (only geomatics) the boundary classes are often tought by geomaticians.
I had an interaction with the professor of the PLSS class at one of the ABET programs. He thought BLM had made an error when they accepted the position of an original monument about 1 link off record.
I really think one PLSS class is insufficient. One class can be a great introduction, but can nearly scrape the surface of all the "exceptions " and case history, much less riparian boundaries and GLO surveyed grant boundaries. Once you have a licence there is nothing stopping you from surveying any boundary, even if all you know is what was in that one class.
I think more boundary classes would better protect the public than a full 3 credits on least squares.
I agree that the University of Wyoming does an excellent job and offers a wide range of classes on the subject. But the nuts and bolts of the minor or certificate require only 12 credits on the subject of boundary law.
If it would have been an option, I would have taken the program from Wyoming, but does not fit my needs. I have 12 credits of boundary law/plss already and will augment it with 3 more credits. It's all the business and management classes where I'm lacking to meet the requirements of a 4 year surveying degree. That's an entirely different discussion that has been beaten to death here again and again.
