I had been an apprenticed surveyor, licensed in 1989, began regular CE programs in 1986 (by choice) when I enrolled in MSUD Denver in 1995 and took one night class at a time as a survey degree major - math minor until the school dropped the program, about 3 classes short of a degree. I have enough credits to qualify for the existing PLS exam today.
My opinion is;
- surveying can't be learned from a book.
- I had many very poor mentors, and there really is no mentoring today.?ÿ
- I cherish the deep fundamentals I was taught in formal settings. I didn't go to college to learn button pushing. I started on a transit and learned button pushing in the field like everyone else.
The learning continues, it doesn't end when you get your license.?ÿ
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My opinion is;
- surveying can't be learned from a book.
- I had many very poor mentors, and there really is no mentoring today.?ÿ
- I cherish the deep fundamentals I was taught in formal settings. I didn't go to college to learn button pushing. I started on a transit and learned button pushing in the field like everyone else.
The learning continues, it doesn't end when you get your license.?ÿ
I would agree with this take.
I did my education sort of backward: started as an entry-level rodman with no idea what surveying was, worked my way through the field and office positions, started the licensure process, and then went back for my four-year degree. Best decision I ever made, especially because I was able to work and go to school at the same time.
Knowing the fundamentals, even the basic science, behind the gear we use, and the "why" behind our workflows will make you a far better surveyor and a more efficient problem-solver. Learning the fundamentals of boundary law, case law and practical boundary analysis in a formal setting will give you a much more well-rounded view of our quasi-legal role.
For me, the education piece was critical because so many surveyors have an extremely narrow view of their own little slice of practice. Learning the fundamentals allows one to see the common elements across the various types of work we do and offers more perspective. I had a lot of mentors who had done the exact same thing for decades and had no interest in teaching me why they did things a particular way, because they didn't know why they did it that way in the first place - they were taught that way so "it must be the only way".
It also helps you attain the knowledge and ability to adapt when needed, which something a lot of surveyors struggle with precisely because they don't have that deep foundational understanding that allows them to see the bigger picture and modify procedures or take a different approach to help a project run more smoothly or beat out the competition.
The formal education also helps you advance other survey-related skills (GIS, photogrammetry, laser scanning, UAS, etc.) far more easily - or at the very least lets you talk to other geospatial practitioners on their own level so you can collaborate on some of the really interesting projects out there.
@rover83?ÿ
Preach it Brother Rover!
Similar and much later path for me, I was in computers and decided I wanted a better life, ha.?ÿ The field knowledge I've been gaining from the old salts and curmudgeons has been invaluable when discussion about the concepts in a classroom setting came up.
Similar but not quite this way...
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https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YlVDGmjz7eM
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Oh, my, that is good!
Reminded me of my experience in a three-credit course in Principals of Real Estate as a step to obtaining my real estate salesperson license.?ÿ I had to make a point to keep my trap shut or we would have never made it through all of the standard lecture time.?ÿ The college instructor would sometimes turn to me and ask for some examples or clarification relative to whatever point he had been covering.?ÿ That was fun.?ÿ I had conducted surveys for several of his family members, including the tract where he grew up.?ÿ Later, I did a survey for him on one of his investment properties.
Ryerson University,?ÿ Civil Engineering with a Geomatics option.?ÿ It would allow graduates to pursue being a P.Eng and an OLS.?ÿ Course break down was the following:
1rst year: common civil engineering courses, 6 courses per semester
2nd - 4rth year: minimum number of courses PEO would allow a P.Eng designation plus all available geomatics courses.?ÿ It worked out to 7 courses per semester.?ÿ You were still, technically, short of all the required AOLS courses.
York University (additional required courses beyond university Bachelor of Engineering for articling process)
Survey Law II
Bathymetric courses could be taken at BCIT or UNB.
The head of Ryerson University was a civil engineering prof.?ÿ He felt that the geomatics program "stole" funds from civil engineering and when budget allocation came up, the geomatics department got canned.?ÿ Same thing happened at Erindale, University of Toronto about 20 years earlier.?ÿ York University is, last I checked, the only Ontario option.?ÿ Some of the profs transferred there, others went to other universities and their GIS departments.
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As you are likely an American, I doubt my option would apply even if the course was still available.?ÿ That being said, I know of 2 fellow students from my years who moved to the American SW and I believe both of them became licensed.?ÿ One was originally from Michigan if that matters.?ÿ I am unaware of the extra hoops they had to jump through as their education was Canadian.?ÿ?ÿ
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It was a great program.?ÿ It was still deficient in that experience, IMO, is also required (ie. interning).?ÿ I also did the following:
-worked for a layout crew for mass earth movers in high school
-was a university prof research assistant for MTO and other research grants
-worked for the City of Toronto's Construction Services Department during summer semesters
-worked for an old Italian OLS before I went back to finish my schooling after "finding" myself
-worked for a number of survey managers, coast to coast, each imparting knowledge I could never get from a book
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Both education and the "school of hard knocks" are equally important, IMO.?ÿ Choose wisely for both (ie. choose a school with a good program and try to find employment with a firm that will help develop the skills you learned academically).
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A good start for the business side is Beardslee's book.?ÿ Key word is "start."
P
@jflamm They don't have the CST exams. I don't know what they are. The program is the only one in the state. The professor, Jessica Hess, is great. The program is mostly online because I work for a surveyor.
@jflamm They don't have the CST exams. I don't know what they are. The program is the only one in the state. The professor, Jessica Hess, is great. The program is mostly online because I work for a surveyor.
The CST exam is the Certified Survey Technician program that was put on by the ACSM/NSPS.?ÿ There's 5 levels.?ÿ Passing the level 1 was a requirement for our first year and the level 2 was required the second year.?ÿ We didn't have the 4 year option back then.?ÿ That CST program still goes today and is a great option for people that don't want to or can't go the PLS route.?ÿ
I was going to reach out to Jessica a couple of years ago and see if she'd be interested in having me come talk to the class.?ÿ Then covid hit. I know I would have appreciated hearing from someone about their experiences other than a local surveyor.?ÿ ?ÿ The online stuff has gained a lot of steam since then so I don't how many actually attend class now.?ÿ R. Swingley was in my class and I saw that he was teaching some there too.?ÿ I may get in touch with him.
The hands on aspect is what I loved about that program.?ÿ I was totally green coming in.?ÿ I didn't know what a level or total station was my first day of class.?ÿ The first day we went out and learned how to throw a 100' steel tape.?ÿ Good times!
@jflamm The only professor at VU is Jessica. VU is the only college in Indiana that has surveying. I was going to Purdue and they dropped the program just as I started. I switched schools during Christmas break. I am only able to do the online program because I work for a surveyor. My classes do have labs that I complete with my boss. Some of the classes I drive to Indianapolis to the satilite campus for labs. I go 4 or 5 times a semester. It is nice not living on campus. Jessica has not mentioned anything about the CST.
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@jflamm Thanks for mentioning the CST. My coworker will be interested.?ÿ
I was required to have the CST2 OF for my last job, and it does make a difference. Not easy either. And definitely doable by working field people willing to go after the goal.
I got my B.S. in Surveying from University of Maine. It's available completely online and that is the way I got my degree while living abroad in Ukraine.
I did it after being in the field for 5 years and decided I wanted to do this as a career and wanted to learn as much as I can and had the ability to take a work pause to learn theory instead of completely hands on.
Their FS prep helped me pass the FS in my 1st go around with a bunch of time to spare.
I'm currently in their masters program (online as well!) and it is interesting as well. Hydrographic Surveying is a subject I knew absolutely 0 about beforehand.
The staff is great. Raymond Hintz is the Survey department head is goes above and beyond what he is required to do. He has helped me on many occasions.
I got my B.S. in Surveying from University of Maine. It's available completely online and that is the way I got my degree while living abroad in Ukraine.
I did it after being in the field for 5 years and decided I wanted to do this as a career and wanted to learn as much as I can and had the ability to take a work pause to learn theory instead of completely hands on.
Their FS prep helped me pass the FS in my 1st go around with a bunch of time to spare.
I'm currently in their masters program (online as well!) and it is interesting as well. Hydrographic Surveying is a subject I knew absolutely 0 about beforehand.
The staff is great. Raymond Hintz is the Survey department head is goes above and beyond what he is required to do. He has helped me on many occasions.
I've heard great things about that program.?ÿ Danny Swain of the USACE has his hands in that program as well.?ÿ At my last employer, we sent a multi-beam head off to get a once over before donating it to the University of Maine.?ÿ Not sure how that ended up turning out.?ÿ?ÿ
@jflamm?ÿ
Danny Swain is currently teaching SVT 542 Hydrographic Surveying. Sofar, I like the course and thus far it has mainly focused on single beam.
He is very nice and invited all students to come down to FL and get hands on echosounder equipment with him on the weekends(his freetime). I don't know many instructors that would be willing to do that. Don't know about the equipment, maybe he has it?
Edited---last part I wrote came out funny.
I already have Master's but am STRONGLY considering a survey related degree. Where did you go and why did you select it? Are there any mostly or totally online degrees for this field? I would hope that some of my gen eds would transfer and I could obtain a A.A. or B.A.?ÿ
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The other route in PA I believe is to just intern for a long time. My end goal is to own my own land survey firm. Which would you select if you lived in PA with no college requirement??ÿ
I think the education route and experience, simultaneously is the best option if you can do it.?ÿ You will learn the most from both experience and education by doing them together in my opinion.?ÿ
Obviously, Penn-state Wilkes Barre is close for you.?ÿ I'm not sure of the quality of that degree now, but it was always highly respected.?ÿ I have heard it is in decline, like many traditional (in-person) surveying programs.
I go to the University of Maine, and I graduate in a couple of months.?ÿ I think it is a great program.?ÿ I think they have the right emphasis on the boundary and legal aspects, which many programs (in my opinion) can push aside for more traditional engineering topics like statics, dynamics, circuits, etc.?ÿ UMaine is an ABET-ETAC, which will qualify you for licensure as a surveyor in any state I'm aware of (and of course NJ which is close for you) and will fulfill the educational requirement in many states for engineering license as well (but not all!.)?ÿ You will also learn some engineering design as well, but the emphasis is clearly on surveying.
UMaine also covers business as well, so you will learn about accounting, management, business laws, small business management, etc.?ÿ
Obviously, I'm biased.?ÿ But, if I didn't think it was a great program, I wouldn't keep spending my money on it (paying for college out of pocket puts things into perspective.)?ÿ I was taking classes at another college in pursuit of a surveying degree and I left because it wasn't the quality I was looking for.
There are many other great schools out there (which were mentioned in this thread,) and I'm sure part of it is finding one that fits what you want to do.?ÿ I think since you're interested in running a business in the future, UMaine is a good option for you.?ÿ
Good luck!
