On the job training?

Before I went to school for it nobody wanted to teach me either.?ÿ After I got the BS though demand was high.?ÿ If you have the patience and flexibility to do it I'd suggest grinding out the BS.?ÿ You'll be able to work anywhere in the country and companies will be glad to have you.

Many folks feel like I am far too pessimistic on the state of affairs with the surveying "profession" (or lack thereof) and for the most part I will not argue that point but this is one that I feel like I am not engaging in unnecessarily negative characterizations.?ÿ

So here goes; There is little to no mentoring or training occurring in most of the companies across the country. You are a warm body who has minimal knowledge and your job is usually to just grind out work. And let the so called "more experienced" folks in the office sort it out.

The benefits and pay are better at big companies but you're just a piece of meat.

The learning is better at small companies but the benefits and pay are a lot less.

This is generally a problem of our own making because of a unwillingness to charge an adequate amount to supply the crew with the tools needed and the time and money needed to do the job properly and to train. Most folks can't charge more because someone will always, always, always undercut them and then those low price leaders will drive the prices even lower, but I digress.?ÿ

Technology has eliminated the need for chainmen, rodmen, instrument men, etc. Etc. Now you're left with one man and robot.

In my case it is one man and robot and a network gps.

Some folks will advise you to get your 4 year degree and while I cannot disagree with that on principle I would look at the added costs. A 4 year degree costs a boatload of money nowadays.

Now the bonus for a 4 year degree if it is from an ABET accredited institution is that it is a lot easier to qualified for the test.

However it is my experience that unless someone (you) have the proper mentoring and field training you will be a 4 year degreed?ÿ idiot. A moron with a degree who doesn't know the basics.

So without proper training and mentoring you will be book smart but not know the basics and few companies can pay top wages to an entry level 4 year degreed person who doesn't know the basics.

Good luck to you.?ÿ

I read all day everyday, but I don't post much at all. This is important and I know more than a little about it.

I was in the same position about a decade ago. I was somewhat successful in a completely different line of work. I stumbled upon surveying by accident. I grew to love it pretty quickly. After wondering - for years - what I'd do about it, I went back to school and am earning a civil engineering degree now. It's been a long haul, but along the way, I was able to simultaneously earn a separate degree that allowed me to become licensed. That made me more valuable and more portable. When I finish my civil engineering degree, it'll happen again. When I get my PE, it'll happen again.

If you really are willing to pay your dues, you're miles ahead of most. Find a small firm - even a one-man shop - and do what it takes to get yourself in the door. Look for someone who works on a variety of projects so you can learn a variety of disciplines and techniques. Smaller firms will be more willing - often by necessity - to let you off the leash so you can figure it out for yourself. You'll earn less money. That's the "paying the dues" part. Consider the lost wages while earning less, the complete cost of finishing your education, the salary you'd expect to earn after it's all over, the freedom to become licensed in other states that will not accept you without the education, and the quality of life that comes from doing what you love to do. If you're like most of the people who frequent this forum, the subsequent plan will be an easy one to formulate - even if it's a hard one to execute. It'll be over before you know and you'll wonder why you were so afraid of it. And if someone - anyone - tells you you're an 4-year idiot with a degree, move on; he's not who you're looking for.

Ya know I did qualify my comments.

However it is my experience that unless someone (you) has the proper mentoring and field training you will be a 4 year degreed idiot. A moron with a degree who doesn't know the basics.
So without proper training and mentoring you will be book smart but not know the basics and few companies can pay top wages to an entry level 4 year degreed person who doesn't know the basics.

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But I don't guess you saw that part, did ya. And I stand by them.

And that applies to any profession. Without training and mentoring were are you? And I don't see the ability to train and mentor simply because the money is not there anymore and technology has rendered a lot of our traditional avenues for learning and advancement obsolete. Chainman to Rodman to Note Keeper to Instrument Man- to Party Chief to RLS is history.?ÿ

I certainly did see that part - and I agree with you. The experience is very important. Critical, even. But you cannot deny that the educational element opens doors that the experience alone will not. They have to work in unison today. Licensees who "came up the hard way" often see inexperienced graduates as lazy or devoid of common sense. I don't mean that it is a universally held idea - I know it is not . My point is that most of us are neither lazy nor devoid of common sense. Anyone who cannot see the value - hell, the necessity - of a degree simply isn't going to be the best bet for a guy who has a degree and little practical experience. There are firms that value that degree and who will offer a mentorship. I'm encouraging him to keep looking until he finds one.

Also, don't be so quick to assume that people are speaking to or about you. It's arrogant. I was offering experience-based advice to someone who asked for it. Nothing more.

I have never seen one of those companies that you speak of.

I have however seen a lot of companies that intentionally underpay to keep you struggling and unable to get ahead. I was told many years ago by a prominent surveyor in the Marietta, Georgia are that he loves it if someone he hires gets married because he pays them less and with being married he will be a long term employee because he pays them a pittance and they basically become a slave where they can't afford to take a day off. I do not doubt that a 4 year degree provides people a leg up and they will go farther. My issue is more the state of affairs with the entire surveying industry and the inability to mentor and train. Nowadays you are thrown into the deep end of the pool immediately and the young folks are not trained.?ÿ

I started out on a 4 man crew and those other guys hated me, referred to me as college boy. I only had a 2 year degree in surveying and a 2 year degree in aeronautics. But those old grizzled men taught me a lot and I took their abuse. And by god if I did not hold that plumb bob good and proper or if I did not hold that chain good and steady I heard it. I worked for years in the field under far more experienced crew members and party chiefs and I did the shit jobs and I grumbled but I did them AND I learned how to do field work from those who knew how to do it.

Nowadays you are thrown into a I-Man job with minimal training, enter the rod height, and mash this button to take a shot. And the party chiefs are the same, they oftentimes don't know why they do the things they do, they just do them. They could not two tape stake a foundation for a house if they had to.

I have also read what some of the 4 year degree institutions cost today and these folks are coming out of college with $100k in school debt and that is an incredible burden on anybody. My total almost 28 years ago was almost $13k and I thought that was high but damn nowadays it's unreal. And now you can't even bankrupt your way out of it.

edit: 10 years ago I used a local party chief part time, he was a local area surveyors party chief and I paid him more than his full time job. Anyway he was a party chief and he did not know how to use a compass or a string line back sight or why you performed direct and reverse angles, he didn't know how to read a deed. I'm sure there is more that I can't recall.

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I'm definitely doing the lousiest jobs possible and it doesn't bother me. Most guys can't climb fences, run, or swim too well. Scuz-water, soggy boots, and machete chopping doesn't really phase me either. I've had some curmudgeon type bosses who have nearly killed us in a lightning storm or told me old timey stories of how crew members were commonly left somewhere to walk home when they tested the party chief's nerves or made bonehead mistakes. ?ÿ ?ÿ

I've learned quite a lot of basics so far, but mastery of the basic stuff doesn't take years if you're paying attention and take pride in your work. My frustration recently is that I don't want a resume with a laundry list of firms where I-Man is the peak of my achievement. That title is a joke in my rookie opinion and meant to keep you grinding away the time when you could be learning a lot more. I guess its my own fault for wanting to be good and learn fast cause that puts pressure on those above me in the ranks. I am not lazy or afraid of responsibility/challenges so I in turn get my feathers ruffled when the appearance develops that it is a double-standard and higher-ups don't take me as serious as I'd like. I don't mind the old ways and years required to get somewhere, but I also recognize we're coming up to 2018, not 1960 so busting out the Gunter's chain and making celestial observations is great history more than valuable skills for today. My point is that nobody is gonna do business the older, slower way while modern tools are accurate and faster. Therefore, why do so many old training or development paradigms persist towards cultivating new talent?

I simply wanna set myself apart from guys who care little and just like to get paid. I didn't take the rodman positions for the money so if I'm not learning new stuff steadily then I wanna be sure I'm not wrong to walk away from companies who haven't mistreated me, but are poor places to develop...

Appreciate the feedback so far. I'm gonna get licensed eventually but responsible charge and earning respect where I'm currently working or searching is gonna take awhile. I might have to let go of my ideals and move around til I find a firm who will be committed to me as much as I am willing to commit to them.?ÿ

Posted by: Just A. Surveyor

I have never seen one of those companies that you speak of.

I'm working for one right now.

My work life has been very non standard.?ÿI'm a farm boy and think I learned more from that than anything else.?ÿ I got my degree at age 31 and had worked mostly for myself before that.?ÿ My first any only professional job as an employee was as an engineer at a federal agency.?ÿ Easiest money I ever made but I hated the work place environment and left after 5-1/2 years.?ÿ They hired very fine engineers and the work mostly only required a technician level ability.?ÿ I thought it was mostly a waste of talent.?ÿ Many think that just out of school professionals are not to good at the work they do.?ÿ It's just a lack of experience or a narrow experience background.?ÿ I wouldn't put them in an educated idiot category.?ÿ They just need some broad based experience.?ÿ Give them that and they will learn how things work and after awhile will usually be far ahead of those without the education.

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Some of the old skills that are lacking or unknown to newbees are well, skills no longer used or needed.?ÿ Probably should know what a "chain" was but being a expert at using one would be mostly a waste of time and training in today's world.?ÿ Nobody is going to be competitive surveying using a chain to measure distance.?ÿ They can only put so much education into a very expensive 4 year degree.?ÿ Most of the common sense experience you are going to need to pick up somewhere else in your life, not at $1000 per semester hour at a university.?ÿ They don't even intend to teach that there.

Keep up the good work. I'm a small town guy and some of the best experience I have so far is from a small shop where everybody needs to wear lots of hats. But on the other hand if I hadn't branched out to a couple bigger firms then I would have a pretty narrow range of experience and be left thinking there is only one way to survey which couldn't be future from the truth. Unfortunately it may take a couple firms to find a good one to take you seriously but I think all experience is good experience weather you learn what to do or what not to do. So keep the ambition up it will pay off. Keep talking to people, get to know other surveyors, you might find some with good advice as to what firm to go to with some good dudes that you will really learn from. No doubt everybody is trying to make a buck so that leads to the production line in the field but sooner or later you will come across the right fit. Fortunately you are coming into surveying in a pretty busy time, so best of luck to you sir keep on keepin on.

I think your attitude and your drive are your biggest assets.?ÿ Keep pushing ahead and keep your eyes open, someone will notice.

Smaller firms might serve you better.?ÿ Perhaps you can find an older LS who could use a little help and mentor you through.

Keep networking and attend local survey chapter meetings.

You will make a good fit somewhere for yourself and where you wind up.

Best of luck to you.

Posted by: D Bendell

I've been trying to break into the survey game over the last few years...

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and will complete an AS in Civil Engineering in April. Next is the BS Program in Geom

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...Surveying game...

Just looking for some feedback...

....I kind of scratch my head.

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I think the answer is hidden in your original post.

I see a million shortcuts, used every day. Nobody wants to mentor you in their "proprietary shortcuts".

Somebody who is REALLY trying... They invest alot of the profit, back into the work they do. Leaving none for you, and leaving no extra time to teach you.

Maybe tbey went solo...

Just recently, I retraced a garbage survey... 4 ft of error in 800 ft. The pins around the lot were ok, but his tie line was garbage.

I cannot trust anything this guy ever does... Fully 25% of his work is fabrication.

Thats "his game".

Who do you want to learn from?

N

D Bendell,

As an alumnus of the UF Geomatics program, I can tell you that your 4-year education will certainly enrich your understanding of not only surveying, but more importantly develop you into how we critically think, analyze, and problem solve in the greater Geomatics world. You may think that's just a bunch of fancy wording to get you to drop off that check for the first semester, but it's what separates the better field personnel from the worse. The BS degree will provide you with all the background information to be successful and competent.?ÿYou'll learn a lot from your professors, but you'll then need a mentor after to teach you how to apply it in the real world. It's by no means a substitute/replacement for hard work and long days out in the field, but i'll personally tell you that it'll keep you accountable for many years to come.

My personal advice: enroll when the timing is right, study hard, get involved with the student association, enjoy your internships, graduate, pass the FS exam, and find a mentor in the alumni network to work for. They will appreciate your education and satiate your hunger because they too wanted more from their profession.