Don't buy the tsc5!

Couldn't exactly tell what you were doing in those videos, cause your hand was in the way.?ÿ Your vertical backsight problem could be solved by entering Survey Styles, and under your stakeout options, de-select the Turn To Point checkbox.?ÿ If you have a number of grid points with a zero elevation, that's what it will turn to (plus your rod height).

You can also just Turn To Hor & Ver as an option under your Inst options. A 0?ø & 90?ø most times will get you near until Autolock snaps to it.

@rj-schneider?ÿ

Sorry the first video uploaded was the wrong one, it ended up being the same as the second one. Fixing it right now. It is tricky to record especially when the pole is on top of a Rebar 10ƒ?? out of the ground.?ÿ

I did end up using the turn to 0 and 90 after my normal way failed a few times (fieldgenius just turns to where you backsighted - horizontal and vertical, not sure why it would be any other way?).

Anyway that glitch was minor compared to the other 2 big ones:

1. prism settings changing from semi active to passive every time I checked backsight

2. Points getting stored several hundred meters away from my location (and not at the backsight prism - TS was looking directly at me).?ÿ

@rj-schneider?ÿ

I double checked and there is no "turn to point" checkbox in the stakeout options in the survey style. Under instrument settings inside survey style there is "servo/robotic" automatic and auto turn I had to turn off because there is a known glitch (according to Trimble) which was causing the instrument to intermittently turn off in a random direction or point at the ground while switching between face 1/2. So being forced to turn this option off may be the cause of the check backsight not working as expected also. This and the freezing touchscreen are known issues so I imagine they will be fixed eventually.?ÿ

I don't know if they're aware of the new glitch I just found where it didn't store a point when I staked and stored it (due to that point name being used already in the upload).

I'm at my limit for glitches now so it's going back on the shelf. The owner was supposed to call our dealer and try to get me software and a TDL 2.4 radio to use on the Panasonic fz-m1 I already have (the glitches likely don't affect the older windows 10 version of access) but then he got sick and forgot all about it. I don't want to be pushy when he's as busy as me, so I will just leave the equipment at the office as the spare and go back to the old Leica for now.?ÿ

I still want to troubleshoot these issues in my spare time but I need to be as productive as possible now with a wedding coming up in July, my fiance needs me to cut down my hours a little to help out, and keeping up with the schedule with this equipment is tough.?ÿ

Sorry you're having to deal with that.

I have similar issues and different.

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Stupid question:

Did Trimble update manager run recently?

the February updates really screwed up some things with Access, and I have inside info on a natl rental group that rolled theirs back on all units because of that fiasco.?ÿ it seems like a software glitch is amuck at the moment.

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Good luck with your wedding!

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@jitterboogie?ÿ

I haven't gotten an update since I received the equipment. I was checking for updates in Trimble installation manager almost every night for a while but there hasn't been anything. The equipment came in late February I believe, maybe March.?ÿ

Thanks for the luck! We also have our house all torn up to fix a leaking foundation right now, so my patience is probably even shorter than normal!

Posted by: @350rocketmike

1. prism settings changing from semi active to passive every time I checked backsight

Did you by any chance run the station setup with the prism in passive mode, then switch the same target to semi-active before getting to work? It's probably a bug as you suggest, but just throwing that out there. It'll always revert back to the backsight prism settings when checking the BS.

We have nearly 20 TSC5s in the field, and I've seen an uptick in bugs from the 2021.20/2021.21 update, but nothing as big as points being stored far away from their true location. Definitely more problems with conventional than with GNSS, though.

Don't hesitate to report this stuff to your dealer. Zip up and send the System Files folder (minus the geoids), plus the project folder containing the job and referenced files that you were working with when you experienced the error. If the Trimble techs can't get their hands on the data that caused the problem, it's hard for them to reproduce and troubleshoot, never mind actually fix it.

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IMO, the only things the 5 has going for it are weight and battery life compared to the 7; the former isn't that big of a deal to me (only one pound difference), and the latter is easily fixed by having spares. I'd rather have proven software on a stable OS. Not to mention that nice big screen. Can't wait till holograms replace physical screens!

@rover83?ÿ

I used the same prism style for the backsight so it shouldn't have been on passive mode. I reproduced the issue on camera just to prove it. It also appeared to be changing in the raw data.?ÿ

That weight difference is much more when it's hanging off the side of a pole with a bipod on it, even worse with a gps rover on top instead of the prism (luckily I don't use gps a lot).?ÿ

@350rocketmike?ÿ?ÿ Mike, apologize, that Turn To Point checkbox may be under Options when you are in the stakeout operation.

Just an observation, and this is just me but, I won't run that many separate windows at once.?ÿ

I'm only one foresight, and performing one operation at any given time, so I keep it kind of bare bones.

I also don't keep that many prism IDs as an option. Just one for each separate BS or FS.

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On the backsight deal, you are either using your measure points operation or, stake points operation.

In stake points your instrument edm tracking mode should be active, giving you your stake deltas. If everything is good use the store button to store the point with a unique ID.

In the measure points operation, make sure you had hit the measure button for a measured value, then hit store with a unique point ID. Your instrument may not be in edm tracking mode to give you a value, and your deltas may be showing you your occupied point deltas compared to your stake point deltas.

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@rj-schneider?ÿ

I confirmed the auto turn is turned off also in the staking options. It seems to be one of those settings that are located in more than one spot.?ÿ

I'm not sure if you're talking about the video I posted where it stored 160m away, but i didn't have any extra windows open, it only showed "return to" - map when I went to stake out the point it just botched on me.?ÿ

I didn't think the extra prism types would be a problem, I just set up what prisms I have plus a no pole target height option for the mt1000.?ÿ

In the video you can see tracking was on when I stored the point and when I staked it out immediately after, so I may need you to clarify what you mean.?ÿ

Thanks for the help guys.?ÿ

@350rocketmike if you did the turn to bs and it changed from active to passive or vice versa. That is usually because whatever prism you performed the bs with right or wrong it remembers it. For the scope pointing down on turning it will do the same thing if you want to turn to any point with say elevation of 0. Or -99999999999.9999 use to happen a lot with even the old Trimble 5600 robots. Because it sees any number in the elevation field as an elevation. Cad folks for years prior to that we used 0 or -99999999 as a non elevation default. Years ago I would just simply open my stake out ascii/csv file and do a find an replace the -9999999999. With a nothing so it would be like 100,10000.000.5000.000,,5ƒ??o/s ?ÿ PointNumber,northing.easting,,code or description. By leaving nothing in the comma delimited space Trimble software saw it as a no. Issue. ?ÿSame goes in reverse if you are doing a topo some field procedures were to type 0 in for rod height if you wanted the cad person to not use it for elevation. However in Trimble simply just delete the height and a ? Mark shows up so now no elevation is calculated. Because 0 is a height and can be an elevation. Like reflector mode. I use 0 for something i am shooting that i want elevation calculated for say height of a building. But if i donƒ??t want elevation I simply use the ? In rod height field. If like today i just want northing and easting no elevation at all i simply just leave elevation blank. ?ÿSorry you are having issues hope this helps some. We all been there trying to learn new equipment and its no fun.?ÿ

@olemanriver?ÿ

So if I get the office to change CSV files to have a blank elevation on all calcs it should help?

In the case of my backsight point in the video I uploaded the backsight had a proper elevation and was backsighted with the same mt1000 semi active prism setting for the entire job and it was the first and only time in that job. So no real explanation for the behavior still.?ÿ

@350rocketmike gotcha on that part. Yes i have seen some goofy stuff even with the tsc7 latest Trimble access update. ?ÿBut the tsc5 is even newer. I want one a TSC5 but i aggee manufacturers all have issues just like a new vehicle with new engine and tranny for the first year or so until we the users identify all the quirks. I tried watching the video on my phone and i am in the cheater glasses stage so I could not see everything. I will try and get my laptop up and running this weekend and try watching it from that to see. ?ÿYes if you have points that are not supposed to have an elevation on it then have them not to set it at zero. I think there is a setting somewhere now someone said that identifies the -9999999@ as null elevation but i have not tried it or looked at it. I just remember in Trimble survey controller software prior software to Trimble access I would clean up my csv stake out files from cad calcs so my gues didnƒ??t have to watch the old robots do a nose dive. It was mostly a problem on a new job and they would have the instrument turn to a few points so they had an idea where to start from and get oriented on the job itself. ?ÿBut I imagine it is a better way now but unsure. I know itƒ??s probably in the help manual or owners manual hidden somewhere. I use to print those darn things out and every time someone asked me how to do something I would find it mark and highlight and tab that section. Then I would give them a sticky note with page number so the would read it for themselves. My outlook was always Give a man a fish he eats for a day teach a man to fish he eats for a lifetime. But these forums and such nowadays are priceless. Heck you can find all sorts of tricks and advice. I bet there are some major power users out there that are way more knowledgeable than I am. What I have seen though is most get new equipment and want it to work like the old way instead of getting into the flow and seeing how to make it dance and be as productive as possible. ?ÿI ran a 1203 with carlson. I would not even try to compare the Trimble and carlson leica to each other. I would approach them both differently as they both have pros and cons. But some similar features but two entirely different animals. I could be productive with either. But I would manage my data differently and work a little different based on there strengths. ?ÿHeck today i used a rag tape 90 degree prism and marking keel. I was having a hard time finding some corners so I pulled the sidelines off the building marked them used gps to locate and a couple other corners. Ran the angles out from bearings and hit my keel marks withen a tenth or two finally got the site figured out and found some adjoiners. You might be right on the glitches I would have my dealers on speed dial. And send them every issue i had until it was fixed. Thats a 5k plus data collector and who knows on the robot and multi track. You will get it figured out i am sure. ?ÿGood luck man donƒ??t give up ever.?ÿ

@olemanriver?ÿ

Come to think of it having elevation or not on the calcs isn't much of an issue because I'm almost never setting up on or backsighting one. If I use the "turn to" function it is only to see if I will have line of sight from my current setup...I do everything robotically after getting lock (remember the part about Trimble search being sub part - I get lock asap and then try to walk in a weird arc to get the GPS search to be close enough, usually not successfully).?ÿ

Personally I've found the only strength of the s5 vs 1203 is working in rain and thick brush. Everything else the 1203 does better. For the time being I have both in the truck, but tomorrow I'm leaving the s5 at the office and going back to the 1203. If I could keep both indefinitely I would use the s5 in heavy rain/bush. If I have to do any reflectorless shots or set control I would want to use the Leica.?ÿ

Those are the 2 most obvious benefits to each but beyond that I have a huge list of complaints about the s5 and a small one for the Leica.?ÿ

@350rocketmike one tip on gps search. Now I mostly run an old tsc3 now days its a back up for the office I work part time for. And when gps search is off it will piss you off lol. Itƒ??s basically running a calibration from not so accurate hand held gps to whatever coordinates system you are on in the background. As soon as you take your backsight if you and your data collector or at the backsight turn the tracking distance mode on and walk around I usually take a quick topo shot codeded gs for ground shot or delete if not needed on my job. I try and get a few shots in an open area gps friendly not in woods or up next to a van or building. Then once it tells me gps search ready i turn the instrument with joystick away from me walk a bit then hit gps search if its good i am off to work i do this as i am working fyi. If its bad i reset the gps and let it start all over again. If you are close to instrument it is not that good. I use the joystick and tracking lights as I canƒ??t see that scope like I could 20 years ago. What i will say is this. I have ran many robots even going back to the old geodometer which Trimble bought out. I will go toe to toe with any of them with searching and tracking with the s series Trimble on any day. Now i have not ran the latest and greatest leica or carlson or topcon or sokkia. ?ÿSo they might be better. But we just staked a property line with thick as laurals and bushes and trees and vertical change wednesday and I never had an issue. It was finding me and I could not see how. But the line was straight lol. The guy who was running it said everytime i gripe about it as soon as i get in spots like this I remember just how good i have it. I was standing behind him and seeing little holes and say rais the rod two tenths and bam locked. It will lock and not get a distance just lean it easy left and right till distance pops or rais it a little or lower it. Its just like having an eye man finding a hole. But not as fast sometimes.?ÿ

@olemanriver?ÿ

That is good advice about immediately turning tracking on...I have been trying to remember to do this everytime as I figured it wasn't counting towards the GPS calibration if it was not in tracking mode. Most of the sites I work at it's not possible to completely walk a 360 around the instrument, so I just do the best I can... usually it doesn't take long to say "gps search ready" but the gps search will still usually be off by several meters meaning that it won't see me at all at most working distances I'm typically at.?ÿ

Sometimes I feel like it has an easier time picking me up through the trees than out in the open. I would definitely stick to the s series if all I did was work in thick bush but on the construction sites I'll take the Leica....it has 5 seconds of prediction in the settings options so walking past a truck, trailer or pile of fill etc it will regain lock on the other side where the Trimble stopped after 3 seconds and I have to use the joystick again. The Leica powersearch will find you pretty quickly unless you climb like 10 feet higher than you were previously and search without joysticking it up a bit.?ÿ

Shooting in measure mode (as opposed to tracking) is also about 1 second with the Leica and 5 seconds in semi active mode with the Trimble. It feels painfully slow to shoot. Once again, yes I adjusted the settings to "2 observations" which is the minimum number. Out of the box it was higher and tool even longer.?ÿ

@350rocketmike i donƒ??t walk 360 i just try and get out away from the instrument sometimes i will just prop rod up on bi pod a few hundred feet away and look at what i am about to do. I say once you get under a 100 feet or so i use joystick and tracking lights not gps search a few meters of gps accuracy is not good close up. The other is you should be able to set the prediction on it i walk behind dozers etc on sites and it anticipates me. There is a setting for it or atleast it use to be. I would up it on small commercial construction sites and shorten it when i was further away. Had a crew chief once ask me why i would change that i said because I donƒ??t like searching i like pounding wood. He finally caught on and his rod man said every time we worked together he would comeback with a new tricks lol. Just close your left eye stand on 1 foot do the hokey pokey and hold your mouth right and all will be good in life. Lol. I am getting a tsc5 next week for an eval on doing a big job maybe i will see what i can hammer out on it if all goes well. I will be using it to perform an intergrated survey with s5 and r12i. I used intergrated survey methods on many jobs with s6 and 5800. But its not for every job but some jobs its the cats meow. I did a 50 acre boundary behind a 1 second traverse once for a test. I never set one control point. Just resection off gps to locate corners in woods. Gps in open field. Compared all results and the company said this was the deal breaker. He outfitted 3 crews with s6 and tsc2 and r8ƒ??s . I want to compare the canopy gps observations. I also want to test the javad system might be my next hobby to test.?ÿ

@olemanriver?ÿ

Yeah that's the problem, I'm rarely out far enough away for the gps search to be helpful. I've gotten the truck of turning on the guidelights, then opening joystick and getting it close horizontally (joystick is clunky especially with the intermittently freezing touchscreen bug so it takes a bit sometimes) but the tricky part is getting it pointed close enough vertically to find me.?ÿ

Yes the prediction settings can be changed from the default 1 second to a maximum of 3 seconds. Leica is 1, 3 or 5 and the difference between 3 and 5 is much more than you would think when you're walking quickly past an object blocking line of sight.?ÿ

Integrated sounds cool. Our company should get into that soon if we're all going to be forced onto Trimble equipment anyway.?ÿ

I did have good luck using the r10 with the tsc5 for the first time yesterday. I did a site calibration and it behaved just as the old tsc3 would. The bugs I've found all seem to be with robotic only so far.?ÿ

Here is a video of how the "check backsight" function should work (in my uneducated opinion)...I know it's hard to see the robot over the trailer but it turned right back to the horizontal and vertical angle I was originally at and got lock on me. I am not working with elevations on this job and had to put the pole up to go over the trailer so I'm not even at the exact same height for sure but close enough that it gets me right away.?ÿ

This wasn't the biggest reason I gave up on the Trimble robot for now, but one of the many contributing factors. I also just shot like 20 ICF corners reflectorless so another reason to prefer the Leica on this job.?ÿ

Some more info on GPS Search and how to use it efficiently: Trimble GPS Search

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Also, I think I see the problem with the stakeout video.

In the review job, there are two points in there called "503_stk". But looking at the map prior to the stakeout and acceptance of the current (second) stakeout, I don't see the flag symbol and point name "503_stk" where we are staking.

So there must be another prior, existing 503_stk, but not at the same location that we are staking to in the video. I would suspect a different linked file with a different 503 as the culprit.

Stake points cannot be averaged in the same way that topo shots can, because at the time of observation, it has to compute grid deltas and cut/fill info. Modifying a stake point after the fact would be messy and might cause some major problems with delta comps.

So it can't average them, but Access has to decide what to do with the final point in the database - it has to resolve it somehow because two separate points cannot exist with the exact same name.

So when encountering a stake point with the exact same name, Access will in effect run a "store another" routine in order to keep things straight, and stick the new observation under the old one, and display/hold to the original.

If you open up the point manager, scroll to 503_stk, you should see two different observations with two different coordinates. The first one observed will be what it holds for the final point position, but both will have the correct grid deltas if you review them.

This is normal behavior and, while a bit confusing, usually doesn't occur unless there are two different points with the same name being linked from two different files. (Edit to add: or unless you accept a position which is way, way off from the design point location, store it, and then go back and stake it out again and use the exact same store name with a position which is now at the design location.)