McCracker, post: 353332, member: 9299 wrote: This brings to mind the Frank Capra film Mr. Smith Goes to Washington where James Stewart holds a filibuster until his mission is accomplished. Americana at its finest in a film sense. It really is a shame there where very few warm bodies in the seats but this is where the internet is a great thing. We heard it and so did countless others just by the internet, but unfortunately the ones who make the laws and were not present.
Many Senators at that time were not happy with that film, they felt it showed them in a bad light.
McCracker, post: 353332, member: 9299 wrote: but unfortunately the ones who make the laws and were not present.
I think its more a problem with interpreting and enforcing as the congressman stated. They are the ones that need to watch that video.
Harney County fire chief resigns, sides with armed protesters
This fire needs stoking!
It seems that the 1st Amendment rights are being stomped on. Where is the ACLU (not my favorite group) when you need them?
I find it odd the militia dudes were denied access to the fairgrounds venue for a meeting; one would think it was the best place to control a large crowd (or small), easily secured, etc. Apparently the brandishing of weapons is no longer part of the equation. I wonder if 1st amendment rights were trampled upon.
That being said these guys are way out of line taking over an innocuous Federal bird refuge and Federal penalties will be assessed. In the meantime, why not let their ridiculous positions be aired either locally or through UTube as is their 1st Amendment right. They're crazy, but even crazy people deserve free speech.
I bet this whole imbroglio will end with a peaceful relinquishment of the refuge with serious indictments of the major players. Their complaints against the Malheur Refuge just don't hold water compared to bigger BLM intransigence in the West. They're on the edge and picked the wrong fight, so many other militias and local agencies have not joined their fight.
The right to peaceable assembly is the key. If they are armed that removes their protected rights. As far as a 'militia' is concerned I get the impression that is a deceptive term created by the media - [sarcasm]which we all know is a valid, unbiased, not for profit organization.[/sarcasm] I would hesitate to use that term to refer to the current refuge takeover - IMO.
Be cautious of anything media or Internet derived - including this forum.
On a side note I know someone who is related to the Bundys. He doesn't think they should be there either.
McCracker, post: 352982, member: 9299 wrote: The lack of seriousness given to the militiamen about their sit-in only fuels their fire. While the rest of the country makes a mockery of them, they are doing what they believe is just. Objectively it does seem somewhat excessive given the case, yet hearing what others who live on the edge of Gov't land have to deal with it seems that maybe they do have a say in the subject. It has created such a grey area in where the government ends and protecting yours begins. These issues haven't existed in the life of this country. If this were 1774 and a rancher burned some government owned land the rest of the country would have cheered. Now that a private owner burns some land owned by the lack of a better term, "Landlord" or public land it is a whole different story. There are two sides to the coin for sure. No doubt this will be resolved in favor of the Wildlife refuge and BLM and FWS and maybe in a way, this is the northwest's last Alamo and Bundy is the last Crockett.
A few things in your post that I feel compelled to address.
In 1774 we were governed from afar. If we attempted to take part in the political process it ended in prison or on a rope. As an off and on volunteer lobbyist I'm glad that has changed. Our efforts don't fall on deaf ears and progress can be made. You just have to be willing to work. Recognizing that your grazing lease is less than fee title helps as well. The Bundy family is a line of thieves who have stolen a very large sum of cash from us. Ammon Bundy is now part of the theft and destruction of more of our resources. Those who think you can run a dozer across the desert and it will heal itself have zero knowledge of desert ecosystems. The various managing agencies make mistakes. Some of their people get out of control. When users decide they are the only important people on the planet things go very wrong. That doesn't mean the BLM or ranchers are all wrongheaded people. The majority of both are hardworking folks that want what's right and work together
These hijackers are not heroes, and they certainly bear no resemblance to Mr. Crockett. Rant over...
One of the articles posted above used choice words to downplay saving a species. Loss of a species has a detrimental impact on the whole ecosystem. We can't go on killing off species with impunity; eventually it's going to catch up to us. We will be starving but at least we added a lot of shareholder value near the end there.
Cooler, rational heads need to prevail. The nuts up there need to be arrested, tried, convicted and shipped off to prison.
thebionicman, post: 353505, member: 8136 wrote: A few things in your post that I feel compelled to address.
In 1774 we were governed from afar. If we attempted to take part in the political process it ended in prison or on a rope. As an off and on volunteer lobbyist I'm glad that has changed. Our efforts don't fall on deaf ears and progress can be made. You just have to be willing to work. Recognizing that your grazing lease is less than fee title helps as well. The Bundy family is a line of thieves who have stolen a very large sum of cash from us. Ammon Bundy is now part of the theft and destruction of more of our resources. Those who think you can run a dozer across the desert and it will heal itself have zero knowledge of desert ecosystems. The various managing agencies make mistakes. Some of their people get out of control. When users decide they are the only important people on the planet things go very wrong. That doesn't mean the BLM or ranchers are all wrongheaded people. The majority of both are hardworking folks that want what's right and work together
These hijackers are not heroes, and they certainly bear no resemblance to Mr. Crockett. Rant over...
I may have used a bad analogy comparing Bundy to Crockett. I do not support armed armed take over of this federal building. I do think the lack of seriousness given to them does fuel their fire somewhat. Like I said, there are two sides to every coin.
McCracker, post: 353515, member: 9299 wrote: Like I said, there are two sides to every coin.
And right in the middle; is the edge....
Notice how quiet it has become. The national news crews have grown bored and bailed out. Therefore, it must no longer be important. Or, does it mean one side is winning?
Their next "public" meeting will probably dredge up the reporters since it will probably be their last.
I am quite surprised that Google searches do not pull up some sort of social media site that they would have set up specifically to air their grievances and upload you-tube videos showing the world what kind of people they really are and what their goals really are.
In this day and age, I would think that would be necessary in order to fight misinformation.
imaudigger, post: 354044, member: 7286 wrote: Their next "public" meeting will probably dredge up the reporters since it will probably be their last.
In this day and age, I would think that would be necessary in order to fight misinformation.
Says a lot about what the outcome will be when this bunch chooses to bring guns to a public relations fight.
I read that they were offered a deal, but wanted to take their chances in court. They knew what they were facing, it's not like the mandatory minimums were created after the events. And these idiots taking over the sanctuary are simply criminals who deserve to go to jail ASAP.
Andy J, post: 354065, member: 44 wrote: I read that they were offered a deal, but wanted to take their chances in court. They knew what they were facing, it's not like the mandatory minimums were created after the events. And these idiots taking over the sanctuary are simply criminals who deserve to go to jail ASAP.
Yes, lets send some more American citizens to prison. What a wonderfully thought-out solution. After all, theoretical harm is a very serious offense and certainly merits long term confinement, financial ruin, and the job friendly label of felon. While we're at it and emotions are real high, why not press for some additional regulation and laws to prevent any such occurrence from happening again. Perhaps we need to rethink this First Amendment foolishness. After all it was never intended that the First Amendment might give voice to boisterous factions.
Murphy, post: 354079, member: 9787 wrote: Yes, lets send some more American citizens to prison. What a wonderfully thought-out solution. After all, theoretical harm is a very serious offense and certainly merits long term confinement, financial ruin, and the job friendly label of felon. While we're at it and emotions are real high, why not press for some additional regulation and laws to prevent any such occurrence from happening again. Perhaps we need to rethink this First Amendment foolishness. After all it was never intended that the First Amendment might give voice to boisterous factions.
They have a right to speak, and to protest. They do not have the right to break the law. It's really not that difficult.
Why aren't they picketing outside the BLM office or the court house? Because that would be tough. They would have to live in a tent, in full view of the public. They would have to answer questions from the press.
Up there they can pretend to be "patriots' and run around the woods. Yee haw!
They absolutely should go to prison for this domestic terrorism.
Williwaw, post: 354054, member: 7066 wrote: Says a lot about what the outcome will be when this bunch chooses to bring guns to a public relations fight.
It would be wise of them to leave the guns in the vehicles if they are going to hold a public meeting expecting honest dialog on topics as serious as these.
In my opinion, meetings like this should be about as taboo as a bar when it comes to carrying a firearm. Check em at the door. Tempers are going to flare. It's just common sense. We will see if they have any.
Andy J, post: 354082, member: 44 wrote: They have a right to speak, and to protest. They do not have the right to break the law. It's really not that difficult.
Why aren't they picketing outside the BLM office or the court house? Because that would be tough. They would have to live in a tent, in full view of the public. They would have to answer questions from the press.Up there they can pretend to be "patriots' and run around the woods. Yee haw!
They absolutely should go to prison for this domestic terrorism.
The moniker "domestic terrorist" should not be applied to a group that has not physically harmed anyone. Federal prison is not a simple waiting game. It is not a punishment that should be casually invoked.
It's not the Bundys that frighten me, it's the resounding chorus of Americans screaming for their blood.
The percentage of adults in the US who actually own real estate is probably at an all-time low. The vast majority of those who do only own a house on a tract just a little bigger than the house. They cannot relate to those who not only own land without houses but who own what seems like huge expanses of land. Their little tract with the house may have a value higher than that of the 1000-acre tract owned by someone else but they assume the large tract is worth far more than it it is. This contributes to feelings of jealousy.
Many people work in an environment where virtually everything around them is owned by their employer. Their paycheck is not dependent on inputs beyond time. Other people must make huge investments from which a paycheck may result, if they are lucky. Again, those investing nothing but time cannot relate to those who must invest large amounts plus time in order to have an income.
Those who invest first for future gain do not take kindly to teatsuckers telling them what horrible people they are.
gschrock, post: 354056, member: 556 wrote:
The community now needs a healing process because a refuge has been closed for a few weeks and a handful of employees cannot show up to work?
Emotionally damaged...how traumatic. Give me a break!
IMHO, it sets a very dangerous precedent when a small group of armed men can attempt to bring attention to their cause by holding public lands hostage, and then walk away like nothing happened. It's kinda like what the NRA likes to say about gun control, it's a slippery slope. What next? I was brought up to believe that if you bring out a firearm with the intent to intimidate somebody, you best be prepared to use it. They aren't props in TV show and this ain't no video game.
