Value of files - Phone number??
Exactly, I get phone call orders by the children of the parents that I did work for in the seventies. Same phone number as when I started.
John Harmon
It would depend on how they are organized. If you just have cabinets full of files with the only organization being in your head, they're not worth much. On the other hand, if you have an electronic database (Excel spreadsheet, Access database, etc) with searchable fields, then you may have something of value to someone. Even with that, the files would need to be complete (deed records, field notes, etc) and you would need to have all your electronic files (dwg, raw files, pics, etc) organized as well.
Think of it like this. I he puts the files up for auction what could he possibly get for the records? If theres a bunch of surveyors in your area clammoring for them then think higher. If your the only one who's wanting them then think low. Myself, I wouldn't pay to haul them off. That's more than likely the reason he's wanting someone to name a price instead of advertising them for sell with a price. He knows theres not that much real value to them. Why pay him again for a bunch of research on sites you may never be on? After having been involved in two records take overs there's not that much advantage to it. You'll spend more time indexing and purging files then it's ever worth. Basically you're just paying him for the privilge to clean his office up. Don't get me wrong, there will be times when you'd be really glad to have his files but they won't be worth paying too much. You'll never get your money back if the price is too high. I'm not saying don't buy, just step back and think what's it really worth.
We've already decided to let some young guy come in and slowly take over with our mentoring or build a big bonfire. If we don't record something and I set a pin for a re-tracement give a copy of the survey to the county engineer so everyone can get a copy if they take the time to look for it.
I for one am not retiring completely. With the equipment we've got the field work is easier than it was 25 yrs ago and it'll be a good bit easier I imagine in another 10 yrs so why would I retire completely?
> Michael, did you get them for a decent price?
> I have 40 years of files in one county. Forty of the five drawer file cabinets and thousands of plats and a ton of stuff that no one else has. When I decide to quit I will surely not give them away. The next guy can hit the ground running. That is worth something.
>
> John Harmon
So what is that insured for in case of loss?
I'm in a recording state, so they are only worth what I'd want to pay.
I know of a surveyor not too far from me that has bought 2 other surveyors records for his new company. Not sure what he paid, but I would have given them both $1.00 per signed plat they have.
I am now a part owner of a firm that has been around for 68 years. The vault is nice to have for a quick idea of what has transpired thru the years. The only real value is letters between the surveyor and client. We used to charge $55 an hour for a 3 man crew. The party chief was paid $6.25/hr and the rest was $4.25/hr. The old man says thats when they were making good money.
SD
The Sacramento County Surveyor has some old private surveyor files. I came across a letter in there proposing to do a survey for $200.
Get a load of this. When I started with a company in 1972 the lot surveys for closings were $35 for platted lots and $45 for metes and bounds. That was the customary fee for the area in Texas. That's for staking and the plat, the whole works.
John Harmon
That was early 1960s if I recall correctly. Probably a more difficult project.
Chris,
I have been there and done that. There are really two points to consider.
1) Is the market you are in isolated or very open to competition? If it's very open, the value of his files goes to nil very quickly.
2) Are his records easily searchable? If not, you will soon be looking at boxes of "stuff" that you never touch.
In my case, I bought an existing firm in a fairly "closed" market so I am the big fish in a small pond. It was more for the good will in the area than outright value. Also, it kept competition from buying his records and flooding the area with cheap copies of old work. Kent is on the money about being asked for free copies though, so that takes a bit of an iron fist to drum that out of people. Nobody gets free copies from me. period.
Not sure what value you are even considering, but I would put little value on the situation, given the posts.
feel free to email if you have any questions. good luck.
PS... unless you are really close with the owner, I would NEVER keep him on to sign surveys.
Andy
There are many variables involved. First, is 90 percent of his work in the area where you are focused? Of that fraction, how much presents an opportunity for future work? How complete are his files such that they would actually help you? Indexing such that you can readily find files that would be of help is critical. Would you need to reindex everything? I'm positive you will find problems with some of his surveys such that you begin to worry about how he may have created problems with others on which you wish to rely.
However, I have one county where we work regularly where probably 80 percent or more of all surveys performed over the past 70 years are not in public files. I would invest some funds to get my hands on those old surveys. We end up wandering up and down blocks with the metal detector searching for pins at every possible lot corner and lot split over a large area sometimes in hopes of finding something to hang our hat on to get started. That is a gigantic waste of time and resources in my opinion.
In my case, if I were wanting to sell any of my old survey files, I would go about it on a county by county basis. Files in certain counties would be more valuable to one or two firms than to any startup or expanding firm.
It has been mentioned above how valuable the telephone number may be. I have kept alive my old telephone number at a cost of nearly $50 per month. But, one phone call to that number will cover the cost for a year or more. There are about 20 years of surveys floating around with that old number on them.
There is little to no value to the files. The value of his business and the sole value of any business is the profit margin the business generates. If he is a solo business, then there is little value, other than the used equipment he owns. This is because the business will not generate any further revenue without the owner. If he has staff, clients, contracts etc. that will generate extra income for you, then there is value to you based upon that extra income plus some value in used equipment. Remember if you buy the business and keep it open, you have additional liability as well. Most files will likely save you some time (very little really) and may help you find field evidence for a new survey. thats about it. You will still have to check and recheck everything in the file and gather new evidence. I typically value a survey business at 1.25 times its average yearly gross sales over the last 5 years. if the equipment etc is older, then I would lower that to 1x. If it is a solo business, I look solely at the equipment value.
The phone number would probably be as much of value to you as the files are, maybe more.
0.02
We really got them for a cheap price, but in this particular case they probably weren't worth what we paid for them. But we were trying to help out an old friend who had been out of business for about 10 years. All of the files were paper files, nothing was digital. There have been maybe two times in the intervening years when we have been glad to pull out one of his files and figure out what he did and find coordinates for his old control points. Mostly it was a waste of time. We haven't even tried to do it in several years and the more time that goes by the more irrelevant they become except as a historical curiosity. One of these days we will probably have to hire one of these companies that come in and shred papers to dispose of them.
Thanks everyone. You've given great feedback. It's good to get advice from people that have done this before. At least now I have a better idea of the thought process. I have to agree with those of you that said the phone number has the most value.
When I moved from the territory of one land line phone company to another, I found that I was going to have to pay both companies monthly to keep the old number as a land line. I couldn't move the number from one land line telco to another but I was able to transfer to a cellular provider. I added an extra line to my cell phone plan for $10 per month and I forward that cell to my main cell. Now I a carry a single cell that both numbers ring to.
In a recording state, the files would be of little value. Heck, all that you need is at the courthouse. When using another's info, you're going to check it anyway. We ended up buying some records from a surveyor's son (not a surveyor) and it was of very little use. We only bought the maps: everything else had been destroyed or lost or something. Pretty much every map is on linen or mylar and each one is custom sized. If the map has swing ties to a building, it's helpful but hardly any of them have that. I would rather have his equipment.
I am now dovetailing in on my father's 40 years of records. Granted, I was in on probably half of the work in the drawers. This info is proving to be of great value to me. With about 4000 names in the database, I have a ton of info. I have an advantage again, though. 20 years ago, I started a digital system of keeping track of names and addresses. I know this stuff inside and out. You, on the other hand, might not have such a good time learning the system.
Probably the most valuable part of the whole shebang are the work drawings and the field notes.
Someone mentioned the phone number. Have you ever tried to move and keep the same number? It's not always easy and I've never been able to do it. Our office has been in the same place for 40 years: Behind my dad's house in a converted garage. I haven't had the pleasure of trying to move a business number to a new situs.
I guess the real question is this: How bad do you want this guys records?
The real scenario
I left out a lot in my original post on purpose. The actual scenario is this. I got my license in May. I have been the party chief for this surveyor for 10 years (started there as a rodman 16 years ago) and got involved in the drafting end a little about 6 years ago. We are a one crew outfit, so basically these records are my fieldwork, computations and drawings. The answer to your question is I would really like to have them. I left all of this out of my post initially because I realize they are at least twice as valuable to me as they are to anyone else. But what am I multiplying by 2? I needed an idea of what they would be worth to someone else.
All records are in a digital database. The regular customers already know me, because it's usually me that meets with them on site. In most cases, even if I didn't keep the same phone number, the regular clients would find me. It would still be nice to keep the same number, and that's the plan.
Obviously, I need his equipment since I own none myself and am used to using his.
Sounds like, according to all these posts, that the files are of little value to anyone other than me. So, I guess I set my own price and hope it's not so low as to offend him.
The real scenario
Chris, that is a whole different ballgame in my book. You are talking about buying an established business, not just a bunch of maps and work folders that you may or may not use. I have been in the same situation as yourself (twice), but could not come to terms with the one retiring PLS. He wanted 2x of the average of the last five years. For me it easier to start form scratch with out a large amount of debt. The other guy wanted a very reasonable sum for his business of 35 years. I was beat to the punch by a friend of mine, who regrets to this day he ever seen that guy. He retied for one month and opened up shop out of his house. Doors were closed only two years after he bought him out. I would suggest letting the owner put the number out first. You can never tell what someone may be thinking. If you have worked for the owner for 16 years it should be an easy conversation to have. Good luck.
The real scenario
Thanks. That's kind of where we left off for now. I told him to think it over and then tell me what he expects for it. Then I can decide if it's worth negotiating or not. If he just wants out so he can pursue other interests, and is just trying to find a way to prevent leaving the rest of us unemployed, that maybe worth it. If he wants to sell it and retire into the sunset in Malibu, that's different. Not sure what he is thinking yet. Right now it's all speculation anyway, he has not committed to selling at all nor have I committed to buying anything at all. You guys have all been a great help at the thought process here and it is very appreciated.
Just put them out at the curb in sealed boxes with a sign on each:"Do Not Take".
They will be gone before sun up the next day.
