The difference being your parents probably stopped forcing you to act a certain way when you became an adult.
My parents didn't force me. They taught me. Much as my elementary school teachers, sports coaches, Boy Scout leaders, university professors, mentors, etc. did as well.
"I'm [insert adult age] therefore I know everything and should never have to do anything that I don't want to do and I'm going to never accept an idea that I didn't have myself on my own without the aid of anyone around me" is the opposite of "becoming an adult". Education doesn't automatically become indoctrination at some arbitrary age.
Becoming an adult doesn't mean that you know everything. Quite the opposite, in fact. It's one of the things that a university education touches on many, many times. It's why we call it "practicing" surveying rather than "knowing" surveying.
I learned a couple of new things this week. I didn't yell at the people who taught me for teaching me something I didn't ask them to teach me. Sometimes you have to accept that you don't know everything and you're not the authority on everything.
Sometimes you get taught something that doesn't have any bearing on the technical aspects of your profession, or that you don't necessarily need to know. That's good too. Your brain doesn't have a memory limit, and sometimes those "unnecessary" things turn out to be helpful in ways that don't relate to making money in your chosen profession. It doesn't mean you got brainwashed.
Lo, those decades ago when I was a Freshman in college I had a fellow student in my English I class who told me one day his major was Plant Therapy.?ÿ I immediately had a vision of a potted plant on a couch being talked to by a psychiatrist.?ÿ He explained that the program focused on using plants as therapy for senior citizens and others living in institutions for indefinite periods.?ÿ I had never heard of such a thing.?ÿ Many years later I met a fellow who had been a Music Therapy student.?ÿ It was for the same purpose.
Just because you haven't heard about a particular educational program, does not mean it has no value.?ÿ Part of being required to take more general classes is to make you aware of far more than you probably would otherwise.
"All I know is that I know nothing"?? Socrates
The difference being your parents probably stopped forcing you to act a certain way when you became an adult.
My parents didn't force me. They taught me.
I guess my understanding of the words "made" and "taught" are quite a bit different. ???
The straw man argument really isn't necessary.?ÿ I'm not disagreeing that it's good to learn things, but there comes a point in everyone's life when they need to be able to put a foot down and say thanks but no thanks.
When I went through the survey program that I did I was in my 30s.?ÿ I am 99.9% certain I paid far more attention in every class than the various 20-year olds in there.?ÿ And I did this because I think I had a better understanding of the value of the information that was being passed along to me in the manner that it was, and it also didn't hurt that I was writing checks out of my own bank account each semester.
This behavior I was exhibiting wasn't the result of anything anyone taught me; it was simply the result of having lived life for a little while and having learned the real value of time and money.?ÿ These are 2 of the more important things anyone can learn, imo, and I find it particularly interesting how these things are trampled by colleges and universities at the very point in a typical student's life when they are naive and trying to get into a position to lead a productive life.
I agree, Rover83. In fact I??d distinguish between what you describe, and the alternative of just learning the ??relevant stuff? as the difference between a university education and ??learning a trade?.?ÿ
Just looked at the Denver core curriculum. Looks pretty reasonable.?ÿ
https://catalog.ucdenver.edu/cu-denver/undergraduate/graduation-undergraduate-core-requirements/cu-denver-core-curriculum/
@jon-payne The biggest problem is the introduction of profit seeking finianal institutions and for profit schools.?ÿ
The $200,000 debts are not the norm, but they do exist.?ÿ
The extended repayment periods, income triggers, and low interest rates in other countries mean tax payers are wiling to foot much more of the bill to ensure and educated workforce in other coutries.?ÿ
The 200K+ debts are mostly graduates of professional programs such as medicine or law, which used to expect high salaries upon beginning their careers (not so much now especially for lawyers beginning their career).?ÿ However, these degrees should lead to a career that makes such an investment worthwhile (and worth paying for) within a few years.
Income triggers and low(ered) interest rates are possible, but that is the difficult to follow paperwork discussed earlier.?ÿ Very low or no interest on all student loans would be a great start IMO.?ÿ That isn't so much the tax payer footing the bill because the degrees earned should lead to higher pay than would have been gained w/o the degree (hence higher taxes paid by that graduate in the long run).
Extended repayments sound good on the surface, but one of the countries that had it stopped payments and forgave the remaining balance at 68 years old.?ÿ I don't have the answer, but I would rather people be saving for their retirement instead of still paying student loan debt up to 68 years old.
I'm sure if I was an instructor I'd want a shot at hauling truckloads of cash home just like everyone else in the world.
I know it is alluded to somewhere else in this thread, but I'll state it outright - the majority of the instructors are not raking in the cash.?ÿ There are a few highly paid ones who are mainly hold overs from when tenure was more readily available.
Just as a for instance, I went and taught at the regional university as a full time faculty member when my mentor retired in order to help the program out as they hadn't yet replaced him.?ÿ I very much enjoyed the teaching aspect, but hated the office politics.?ÿ It was an almost 50% pay cut from private practice and 'raises' did not even keep up with inflation.?ÿ Several other new faculty members were in the technology program and had similar higher outside salaries.?ÿ Pay rates were easily found and what we new tech faculty (all full time non-tenure track) were making was often times more than PhDs teaching in other programs and not far from several long time faculty in our own programs.?ÿ Administrators, on the other hand...
And Florida Governor DeSantis has reinstated the original budget for University of Florida Geomatics School that others thought appropriate to cut.?ÿ
That is outstanding.
I think these requirements exist simply to prop up programs that don't have the demand to exist on their own.
Enrollment numbers in the programs that have these 'liberal arts' education electives would probably not support this suggestion.?ÿ Examples of some of the courses to cover the general education requirements - sociology, psychology, history, jazz appreciation, religious studies.?ÿ On many college campuses, those subjects fall squarely into the more popular degree programs.?ÿ If you are attending M.I.T. or other such schools, then the case may be different.
Many surveying courses (not full surveying programs, just where the courses are offered) are propped up by being a required course in a civil program.?ÿ I have been told that some civil programs no longer have that as a requirement - I hope that is not an upcoming trend.?ÿ Not everyone studying civil engineering is really interested in surveying, but they are required to take it so they are exposed to the ideas.
I'm sure if I was an instructor I'd want a shot at hauling truckloads of cash home just like everyone else in the world.
I know it is alluded to somewhere else in this thread, but I'll state it outright - the majority of the instructors are not raking in the cash.?ÿ There are a few highly paid ones who are mainly hold overs from when tenure was more readily available.
Just as a for instance, I went and taught at the regional university as a full time faculty member when my mentor retired in order to help the program out as they hadn't yet replaced him.?ÿ I very much enjoyed the teaching aspect, but hated the office politics.?ÿ It was an almost 50% pay cut from private practice and 'raises' did not even keep up with inflation.?ÿ Several other new faculty members were in the technology program and had similar higher outside salaries.?ÿ Pay rates were easily found and what we new tech faculty (all full time non-tenure track) were making was often times more than PhDs teaching in other programs and not far from several long time faculty in our own programs.?ÿ Administrators, on the other hand...
Right, but what I'm saying is it could be worse.?ÿ My sister is a registered nurse and her field is (and probably has been for a long while) experiencing massive demand.?ÿ Her pay is high enough now that apparently there is talk about capping nurse pay.?ÿ She says if that ever happened that she'd immediately quit and do something else.?ÿ All I was saying is if that came to be floated as a solution for reigning in the cost of tuition that it would probably backfire similarly.
@bstrand I agree with your premise that such a suggested solution would not work well, but twice in this conversation the pay for professors has been generally over exaggerated.?ÿ If a solution for addressing the cost of college includes suggesting reducing or capping professor pay, it will be brought up and gain support based on a very mistaken idea that many professors are making a very high salary.?ÿ I have twice pointed out that was not the case because too many people are of the mistaken opinion that professors are paid big bucks from the tax payer coffers to do nothing.?ÿ Some very high demand and very well known faculty may be making big bucks, but most are making well less than they could in private practice.?ÿ Just as in private practice, there are some worth the money paid, some worth much less, and some worth much more.
I'm sure your sister is aware, but did you know some of the high demand and high salaries in nursing from more recent years (2010ish and onward) is due to schools of nursing not having enough faculty to teach all those interested.?ÿ Many potential nurses are not even admitted into nursing school.?ÿ Why??ÿ Because some existing faculty and some who might be faculty are seeing that they can make significantly more in practice than teaching.?ÿ Some programs turn away 3 or 4 times as many qualified students as they accept.?ÿ If teaching were such a cushy well-paying job and getting student butts in seats was such a cash cow, it would seem that should not be the case.?ÿ (Disclaimer - I was looking at writing a paper on credentialing in engineering tech programs and used the medical fields as a jumping off point for investigating faculty credentials.)
And the liberal arts requirements definitely need to go away.?ÿ I remember when I was in the survey program in Denver one of my requirements was a multi-cultural studies class-- I think the choices were african, asian, and native american.?ÿ Complete and utter waste of time and money, but there was no way around it.?ÿ If I'm in a STEM field I shouldn't be required to take any of that garbage, because all it does is contribute to the tuition bloat.
Native American cultural studies is very applicable to land surveying.
coming up with a worldview based simply on their day-to-day experiences
That results in a very limited, even myopic, view. Education should broaden that view, putting experience in a larger perspective.
Everyone, college graduate or not, is free to sit down anytime and read about art history, you know that, right??ÿ What is with this drive to ram it down people's throats and then charge them money for it?
I think these requirements exist simply to prop up programs that don't have the demand to exist on their own.?ÿ If the goal is to make tuition more manageable then I think it's perfectly fair to argue in favor of letting programs fall off the menu if the demand isn't there.
Except most if these programs have an order of magnitude more students than surveying programs at most schools.?ÿ
The day I started my first post-graduation job in the engineering field, my annual salary was equal to or higher than non-PhD faculty members who had been teaching/assisting with my core classes.?ÿ Many of my peers had been hired into the petroleum industry for more than most of the PhD faculty members.?ÿ Some of those who stuck it out in the petroleum arena have donated enough money back to the University to now have their names emblazoned on certain parts of the buildings or have endowed scholarships with their names on them.?ÿ One fellow a few years younger than me got into the railroad industry.?ÿ The College of Engineering now has his name preceding its formal title everywhere.
