Should a PS stamped survey be good for more than 6 months?

"How much can change in six month that warrant a new survey?"

An awful lot can change. Missed evidence, new evidence, recanted testimony, new court case that changes interpretation in a given situation, conveyances or other legal or surveyor opinions, etc., etc., etc. (the list really can go on and on).

"What happens to the first survey that was delivered to the property owner?"

It is still an opinion and may or may not stand the test of time. Did you retain the surveyor based on recommendations, reputation, or low price? Sometimes it makes a difference.

"Can an engineering firm just ask for the stamped sealed print back?"

Sure, but you don't have to give it back. However, if they are changing their opinion they must give you the map or report detailing the new opinion.

I would ask also for a written report detailing what has taken place. If they refuse, you might report it to the state office of professions and see if they can help sort it out.

Good luck.

Duane,

Thanks for the advice and we did hire the surveyor on reputation.
Largest in the valley.

gary

Stuff happens but from my view any survey firm that rejects their own work should refund the money for the rejected work. Also any improvements that were installed on the bad survey should be paid for to fix or relocate by said survey firm.

This shouldn't happen very often but it does. It's bad for landowners and even worse for surveyor's general reputation.

Like has been stated many surveys are just an opinion. But it's an opinion that is to be relied upon. If it's wrong and causes damages then the damages should be compensated.

Largest isn't always best. This is especially true when it comes to performing boundary surveys. The large firms usually got that way because they served the markets of construction and large development. They are geared primarily toward production work - as many construction stakes in the ground or as many mapping points collected as possible per day.

Boundary can seem simple to many because it seems like the surveyor should just be able get on the starting point and start measuring the distances and directions in the deed. But that's not how it works.

First, understand that the deed description is an attempt to describe the intended boundaries. How well any dimensions given actually do that depends upon a great number of various possible circumstances. For that reason, a boundary survey of an existing parcel is more often an exercise of investigation and analysis of evidence than it is a measurement and staking exercise. Measurments, rather than being the main focus are simply the means by which we determine the spatial relationships of the pertinent physical evidence and the lines & points we determine by an analysis of all the evidence (physical and from research). Production oriented crews and organizations are often not well suited to boundary surveys because they often do not exercise the patience necessary to find and recognize pertinent evidence.

That's certainly not always the case. Some large companies have personnel who can adjust their mindset from that of production to that of meticulous investigation and back as needed, or have different personnel that specialize in different types of surveying, but that's not typical.

I agree with Duane to this extent: they most likely found important, controlling evidence on the second trip that they missed the first time. I disagree that a change in the law during those 6 months could have had any effect as the boundary description would have to be interpreted according to the laws in effect and other circumsatnces existing when it was created, and interpreted according to the court precedents in effect when the survey was made. Court rulings in boundary rulings tend to build on, clarify, and sometimes refine previous court precedents, working toward the stability of existing boundaries rather than upsetting them. I have a very difficult time imagining a precedent concerning rights of way that would result in a need to move your boundary to a location that interpretation by the previous applicable precedents would have placed it.

Most likely, the change is your corner location is because the RW monument that they missed 6 months ago was a controlling point of your boundary. If the monument was there 6 months ago, they should heve located it then and were premature in setting your corner monuments and issuing a map lacking consideration of that controlling point. If it wasn't there, and whichever agency owns the RW reset the monument sometime in the past 6 months did so in a location other than in the location your surveyor determined it should be, then that raises the question of why that would be.

That RW corner also has points that control its location. Did your surveyor derive a location for it 6 months ago similarly having not located the proper points to control its location? Did he improperly calculate its position from the proper points?

There might be a legitimate explanation for the difference. More likely, the explanation is that they missed evidence they should have found, improperly used evidence, or improperly calculated. In short, they made a mistake 6 months ago that they are correcting now. Hopefully, for your sake and theirs, neither you nor your neighbors have relied on the erroneous monuments to your detriment, as in building fences or other permanent improvements dependent upon the boundary locations.

Edit: I agree with what LRDay says below. Mistakes happen from time to time. Hopefully they are corrected before someone incurs expense by relying on them - no harm, no foul. But when someone does incur actual damages for such reliance, the surveyor should step up and cover those costs.

Look at the positive side, your surveyor chose to correct the mistake. Some, upon finding it, would just ignore it and hope that it's not discovered before they retire.

Every survey that leaves the door should be valid for as long as there are no changes to the property or the adjoiners. At least that was what I was taught. The mark of a professional should be if you screw up, you fix it no matter what the cost. I have made mistakes, and I have fixed them at my own expense. In the field at the crack of dawn or until dark, Sunday mornings, whatever it takes. Long after we're gone, others have to rely on our work. Eveyone on this site knows how it is when they go pull records for a survey; you know what you're getting into when you pull a plat and see who signed it 10, 50, 80 years ago.

10" apart eh? Sounds like you need a 12" dia. corner post.

Some of the fiercest fights are between crews/surveyors within the same company.

As for six months, some of my surveys don't last six hours. For some reason my pins grow legs and walk a few feet. Not my client, but the clients neighbor/ex-sister-in-law. Nuff said.

Steve

"I disagree that a change in the law during those 6 months could have had any effect as the boundary description would have to be interpreted according to the laws in effect and other circumsatnces existing when it was created, and interpreted according to the court precedents in effect when the survey was made."

The first part of this statement is correct. However, courts do modify meanings and set new precedent that would supercede a surveyors opinion (we really don't make law, although we can influence it).

This is especially true where public rights are concerned, such as highways. A case in point in NY is the 2012 decision wherein the high court decided riparian boundaries (highways) will go to the center regardless of whether the calls of the deed touch the monument. Any surveys showing the line along the bank (because the call was to and along the bank, the old rule) are no longer correct (unless they fall under the exception discussed in the ruling). Of course there's more to it than that depending on the status of the waterway and the history, but the point is the rule changed and it affects all parcels unless there has been such time and reliance that vested rights could be argued to have been taken (unconstitutional). However, that argument is probably not going to win out based on a survey map because it has not in the past in NY (but a differing newer high court decision could change that too).

As the poster should be able to see from this thread, it can become complicated and mistakes can be made. Whatever the particular facts of this case are, hopefully the company will deal honestly with the consumer and strive to make things right. Not necessarily any negligence going on here. Does seem like this company needs to take a look at SOP for communications with clients. Crews should not be expressing opinions on the boundary location. This should only be done after the maps have been finalized and reviewed, and then the communication should come from a licensed surveyor. If monuments are set before that time the crews should be instructed to communicate that they are only preliminary at this point. In the initial phase crews should be instructed to communicate they are merely gathering evidence and are not going to give a boundary line determination to the client in the field.

Well, here in Texas, you are help liable for your survey for 10 years.

Randy

Yeah, that's why you should bend over backwards to correct it before any actual damages result from your own actions or inactions. But, one can still miss evidence and not be liable if their search was a thorough one. And, even (or maybe especially) in Texas surveyors can have strong and differing opinions, all of which may be valid, only one of which the court can agree with:)

I want to Thank All of you for your comments and opinions.
This site has worked to ease the exhaustion of sleepless nights.
You all are providing justification to my insistence to get this neighborhood back at rest.

Question: eapls2708
That RW corner also has points that control its location. Did your surveyor derive a location for it 6 months ago similarly having not located the proper points to control its location? Did he improperly calculate its position from the proper points?

A: Hard to say why RW rod was overlooked. I found it quick by hypotenuse of a 25 x 25 right triangle which is sqrt of 1250 = 34.35’.
Plus the rod sticks up about 2 inches.

Gary