Do you have to have a NY License to do topo surveys if they are not project related to boundary surveys? Thanks in advance.
§7208. Exempt persons.
This article shall not be construed to affect or prevent the following, provided that no title, sign, card or device shall be used in such manner as to tend to convey the impression that the person rendering such service is a professional engineer or a land surveyor licensed in this state or is practicing engineering or land surveying:
a.
b.
c.
d.
e. Making of surveys by professional engineers, except that the determination of real property boundaries may be done only by a licensed land surveyor;
> Do you have to have a NY License to do topo surveys if they are not project related to boundary surveys? Thanks in advance.
(Re: NYS Education Law Article 145 Section 7203)
The practice of the profession of land surveying is defined as practicing that branch of the engineering profession and applied mathematics which includes the measuring and plotting of the dimensions and areas of any portion of the earth, including all naturally placed and man or machine-made structures and objects thereon, the lengths and directions of boundary lines, the contour of the surface and the application of rules and regulations in accordance with local requirements incidental to subdivisions for the correct determination, description, conveying and recording thereof or for the establishment or re-establishment thereof.
You need to be careful interpreting passages like the one James Vianna quoted. What counts as the practice of a profession for purposes of acquiring the experience needed to get a license, or for purposes of being allowed to do something that might also be covered under another profession, is one thing. The activities that are forbidden to unlicensed persons is something else.
All projects that have a need for determining features of the earth or the vegetation or waters thereon are related to boundaries in my view.
If someone other than a licensed surveyor wants to make a conceptual map showing topography and a design, or wetlands and a design, or erosion and sediment control and a design; go for it. Just don't try to show where it is on the earth without a surveyors stamp. If it's identified as being anywhere in NY, then a NY surveyor needs to be retained and involved.
Other folks want to play hardball, I suggest surveyors start doing the same.
It seems to me Duane Frymire's post contains a contradiction. Leaving aside the case of a design professional with more than one kind of license, and the case of NY engineering who were surveying before a certain dete, an engineer or architect isn't qualified to locate boundaries. At the same time, a land surveyor isn't qualified to decide where future structures should be placed. But somehow it must be possible to create a drawing that shows existing boundaries and the specified location of future structures. So exactly how does Duane Frymire propose this be done?
> At the same time, a land surveyor isn't qualified to decide where future structures should be placed. But somehow it must be possible to create a drawing that shows existing boundaries and the specified location of future structures. So exactly how does Duane Frymire propose this be done?
I'll bite, if in NY .. the answer would be to hire a surveyor. He can provide you with a contour map containing boundaries. In NYC, there are different types of surveys I've never heard of anyone doing ALTAs (of course I'm not really a boundary surveyor, so I'm not in those circles) One type is an Architectural, which provides the Architect with all the data he needs another type is an Engineering Survey etc.....
I'm not sure how anyone could be better qualified than a land surveyor to determine where future structures should be placed. It's up to the engineer to design the structure so it is safe and sound, and the architect to make it pretty. Where it should go is based on law, measurement, natural and artificial features of the earth. I would argue any site plan not stamped by a surveyor is a violation of licensing laws.
It is in the best interest of the public for the surveyor to prepare the entire site plan so that stormwater, erosion, regulatory boundaries, and ownership boundaries and easements are all properly taken into account in the most efficient, economical, and professional manner. Otherwise the consumer gets a mixed bag of one thing after another added to someone else's work with all the revisions necessary and heightened probability of mistakes or ommissions; in addition to delays and cost increases.
Surveyors traditionaly have performed this service. Surveyors work on and with the land every day and are best suited to analyze any particular site based on years of observations of natural processes, as long as that is coupled with the proper training or education in modern methods of research and analysis. Our college programs in NY take care of that last bit. Which BTW, covers proper determination of the parcel boundary itself.
No contradiction. One can buy a book of differing house designs to choose from. You can even put it in context by siting it on a site similar to the one in question as long as you don't identify it as the site. When it comes time to apply it to reality, the law (and common sense) requires a land surveyor. It also requires an engineer to make any regional or site specific modifications to the structural design.
> At the same time, a land surveyor isn't qualified to decide where future structures should be placed.
FWIW - in Maryland deciding where future structures should be placed (the preparation of site plans) is statutorily included in the definition of "practicing land surveying"
Some building designs could be placed anywhere on some sites, for functional purposes. So it would just be a matter of finding a place the owner likes and that is within the required boundaries and setbacks. Certainly a land surveyor could do that. But in some cases there will be an interaction between the exact location within the property and the function of the building, such that the design of the building would have to be changed if it were moved. In such a case, the final location must be chosen by the engineer or architect, within the legal constraints provided by the land surveyor. So how would such a selection process be reflected on the drawing?
Another consideration is that there is overlap between professions. While Duane Frymire might think it's a better idea to hire a land surveyor for all aspects of land measurements, engineers are allowed by law to perform engineering surveys. So to what extent would the engineer be allowed to depict, on his/her drawing, a land boundary with attribution to a recent survey by a land surveyor?
"FWIW - in Maryland deciding where future structures should be placed (the preparation of site plans) is statutorily included in the definition of "practicing land surveying"
OK, but statutorily including an activity as the practice of one profession does not necessarily exclude it as the practice of other professions. The general public might even be allowed to perform the activity; recognizing that a profession has special competence to perform an activity or granting experience credit for an activity is not the same thing as prohibiting unlicensed persons from performing the activity.
An example is that one does not need a license to design manufactured goods, but the experience that qualified me to be a PE was indeed the design of manufactured goods.
No, the final location should be determined by the land surveyor. The design should be modified to fit the necessary location.
If the location could be in one place or another, it is still a determination for the surveyor to show. Then the engineer can decide if they want to squeeze it in where it will work, or redesign it to fit in the other location.
If you are using a surveyors plan, then a surveyor has been involved and shown you where to put it, or your options on where to put it. If you are using a plan that was not prepared for that purpose, then it is like using a design that is not designed for that location.
In no case should an engineer be allowed to depict a land or regulatory boundary on their drawing that has not been determined by a licensed surveyor for the distinct purpose of that design, and within a reasonable time period of the placement of that design. Anything else is against the law.
""FWIW - in Maryland deciding where future structures should be placed (the preparation of site plans) is statutorily included in the definition of "practicing land surveying""
"OK, but statutorily including an activity as the practice of one profession does not necessarily exclude it as the practice of other professions. The general public might even be allowed to perform the activity; recognizing that a profession has special competence to perform an activity or granting experience credit for an activity is not the same thing as prohibiting unlicensed persons from performing the activity.
An example is that one does not need a license to design manufactured goods, but the experience that qualified me to be a PE was indeed the design of manufactured goods."
This is exactly my point. Engineers want to use this argument when it benefits engineers, but not when it benefits any other profession, or the consumer.
Thanks for making my point for me more clearly than I wanted to state it.
In my area anybody can do it! And they do. And sometimes they are in the set back and once in awhile they are over the boundary line. Sometimes it's a commercial site and requires professional plans showing where the buildings are to be built. Sometimes they hire a surveyor, sometimes they don't, the general contractor is the responsible party to move it if it gets built in the wrong place.
I'm OK with this, don't believe everything done needs some sort of license. I think we've gone way to far, licenses are promoted more to protect the practitioners than anything else. If you mess up you should pay, those kind of lessens one doesn't soon forget. No license required to learn this lesson.
I've made a couple of mistakes in life that would have paid for a Ivy League education but all I got is state university via the GI Bill, no license required at all! Never made them mistakes again either.
