I've run into two subdivisions lately that were incompetently designed and staked on the ground both Surveyors are pre 1970's licensees. One is deceased and the other is 90 years old, but still keeps his license active. The lots on their Plats don't close by 30 or 40 feet on multiple lots. The ties to Original PLSS corners are off by 100 to 200 feet. Any lots in steep terrain mysteriously have lost pins. That's the problem. If you attempt to replace those lost pins by voodoo or some other method aren't you accepting liability for fixing the bad surveying for the entire subdivision? There's no recourse for the deceased Surveyor of course and the 90 year old Surveyor keeps using his 10 year Statute of Limitations card. I've turned these surveys down, but the clients always seem to find someone who figures out a way to set the lost pins. Any ideas?
So...how long you been in Oklahoma? :pinch:
We have our share of those around here. They mess the whole world up. The only way I work in those areas is with a lot of evidence of occupation, maybe some old pins (or posts), very little math...and a whole lot of prayers. But remember, if you try to make everybody happy, somebody's gonna get mad.
Seriously, you can either avoid it like the plague, or jump in with both feet. There is rarely ANY way to "survey" just one lot in there correctly. Trying to chase down the original perpetrators is a lost cause, give it up.
It is ok to tell people on the phone that you will NEVER, EVER work in there.
There are 2 main reasons I want local ground coords, in the field.
1.) I often start the whole decision process, in the field. I also LIKE to calc, and set corners, in the field. If I can't do that, then I go home, enter deeds, calc prelim. Coords, return to the field, tie the corners, that had prelim. Calcs. And re compute in the field. Set corners, and go home.
This is why I want the LS to have EAST, FAST, cogo.
2.) the other reason, is that I learned it like this. It's my habit.
I'm familiar, thankfully, with only one disaster of a subdivision. Every lot line and block border provides bearings and distances. Not necessarily correct, but they are placed clearly on the plat. One extremely large block had exterior dimensions and bearings that wouldn't close by something like 40 feet or more. The 18 or so internal lots didn't work out any better, so to speak. Unbelievably bad.
We were the first to attempt to locate one of those lots. We took existing monuments from the four adjoining blocks to create the "far side of the street" on all sides, then offset the platted street widths to arrive at "this side of the street" around the block. The challenge then was to come up with some sense of order as to how to modify the 18 lots to create closure on each. There was absolutely nothing but grass present so there was no need to worry about pre-existing claims.
The client got stuck with a monumental invoice, but paid it anyway, fortunately.
Well I've run into two recently and they are a puzzle. How does a supposedly experienced Surveyor measure 100 feet to the hundredth, and calculate his Acreages to 4 decimal places and mismeasure by 20 to 40 feet? Now granted these Plats are not CAD generated so he probably drafted them with a protractor and scale using an unsharpened crayon so I guess we should cut him some slack? I guess I shouldn't expect his field work to be any closer.
Wait a minute! Who needs CAD to figure something as simple as area in the vast majority of situations? Sure, it's faster, but one simple error can provide a very precise, yet horribly wrong, total.
Hmm maybe you're the man I need to talk to. How do you calculate up your areas when you drew your lot with a protractor and scale? I haven't used DMD in a while to calculate areas, but I seem to remember you had to have coordinates to do it. The survey also had to be balanced to get a correct answer. Do you use one of those coordinate sheets back from the days you worked for the Highway Department still? I'm still puzzled how you get your areas to 5 decimal places.:-D
Well, it's a fun little dance that works like this. Ya drive a stob in the ground that will be one of your corners. You get the tripod with the wachamadingy on top. You send your helper off to wherever it is you want to start from. He sets a stob in the ground and you line up on it. Then he comes back past you and goes to the next point you want him to go to and he sets another stob. You rotate to line up with that. You write down the angle. Your helper comes back. You grab your chain and chaining pins and measure the distance of each of the legs and write those numbers down. Then you move to the forward stob, line up with the one you first were on, wait as the helper goes to the next corner and drives a stob, then line up with it and write down that angle. Then you measure that distance and write it down. You keep doing this until you get to the last corner. Not the very first stob marking the first corner, the last stob marking the last corner. Why worry about measuring an angle or distance on that leg, it is whatever you say it is when you write: Thence to the place of beginning.
Back at the office you get out a sheet of paper and a pencil. You draw to scale all of the legs of the traverse per your notes. Then you reach in a drawer and pull out the little box that securely stores your planimeter. You carefully run the planimeter around the perimeter, including the leg you never measured because you didn't need to do so. You read of the number and voila, you have your answer.
Or, back at the office you draw the same sketch and then assign one corner coordinates of 0,0 and another corner as 0, whatever it measured. Then, following the angles and distances, assign coordinates to all corners. Then draw lines connecting corners to arrive at a series of rectangles and triangles. Calculate the area of each little rectangle and triangle. Add them up. Divide by 43,560. Carry your decimal to five places to prove your professionalism.
Ah the planimeter! By golly Livingston I think you've got it. Never imagined they were accurate to 4 decimal places. I was thinking the rectangle, triangle was how they were doing it, but the planimeter is much more scientific. I hope you aren't speaking from experience.:'(
Only as an observer.
Ah, the planimeter. I have one of those. And have used it oh so many times. It is actually a useful tool to help determine where errors might be in plats such as are described in this thread. Around here there are a couple of them; mention Pettit's or Lake Park and watch many of my peers scatter to more fertile pastures. I however have compiled a handsome portfolio of unrecorded surveys, notes and have done enough work that I am reasonably comfortable working in them. Never have a budget and always recommend boundary line agreements upon recording my work. By the way, I get calls from time to time from homeowners who's surveyor recommended me for all the work in those neighborhoods. I would do the same in many areas where my comfort level is not adequate.
Sadly, there are too many today who wish to do sloppy work in the name of profits while knowing that it is extremely rare to be sued for financial compensation for boundary errors. That plus assuming their E & O coverage will take care of it.........which it won't. But, ignorance is bliss.
I've had similar discussions with clients about their views on title insurance policies. They actually believe that the title companies will somehow fix their problems when they arise. No. The very most they will do is send you some money. That's why it's called insurance, not assurance.
Holy Cow, post: 357771, member: 50 wrote: Sadly, there are too many today who wish to do sloppy work in the name of profits while knowing that it is extremely rare to be sued for financial compensation for boundary errors. That plus assuming their E & O coverage will take care of it.........which it won't. But, ignorance is bliss.
I've had similar discussions with clients about their views on title insurance policies. They actually believe that the title companies will somehow fix their problems when they arise. No. The very most they will do is send you some money. That's why it's called insurance, not assurance.
Only if you get past all of their standard exceptions which is about everything and the dog under the front porch.
Holy Cow, post: 357555, member: 50 wrote: Well, it's a fun little dance that works like this. Ya drive a stob in the ground that will be one of your corners. You get the tripod with the wachamadingy on top. You send your helper off to wherever it is you want to start from. He sets a stob in the ground and you line up on it. Then he comes back past you and goes to the next point you want him to go to and he sets another stob. You rotate to line up with that. You write down the angle. Your helper comes back. You grab your chain and chaining pins and measure the distance of each of the legs and write those numbers down. Then you move to the forward stob, line up with the one you first were on, wait as the helper goes to the next corner and drives a stob, then line up with it and write down that angle. Then you measure that distance and write it down. You keep doing this until you get to the last corner. Not the very first stob marking the first corner, the last stob marking the last corner. Why worry about measuring an angle or distance on that leg, it is whatever you say it is when you write: Thence to the place of beginning.
Back at the office you get out a sheet of paper and a pencil. You draw to scale all of the legs of the traverse per your notes. Then you reach in a drawer and pull out the little box that securely stores your planimeter. You carefully run the planimeter around the perimeter, including the leg you never measured because you didn't need to do so. You read of the number and voila, you have your answer.
Or, back at the office you draw the same sketch and then assign one corner coordinates of 0,0 and another corner as 0, whatever it measured. Then, following the angles and distances, assign coordinates to all corners. Then draw lines connecting corners to arrive at a series of rectangles and triangles. Calculate the area of each little rectangle and triangle. Add them up. Divide by 43,560. Carry your decimal to five places to prove your professionalism.
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Skeeter1996, post: 357546, member: 9224 wrote: Hmm maybe you're the man I need to talk to. How do you calculate up your areas when you drew your lot with a protractor and scale? I haven't used DMD in a while to calculate areas, but I seem to remember you had to have coordinates to do it. The survey also had to be balanced to get a correct answer. Do you use one of those coordinate sheets back from the days you worked for the Highway Department still? I'm still puzzled how you get your areas to 5 decimal places.:-D
DMD is based on using Latitudes and Departures, not coordinates.
Skeeter1996, post: 357276, member: 9224 wrote: I've run into two subdivisions lately that were incompetently designed and staked on the ground both Surveyors are pre 1970's licensees. One is deceased and the other is 90 years old, but still keeps his license active. The lots on their Plats don't close by 30 or 40 feet on multiple lots. The ties to Original PLSS corners are off by 100 to 200 feet. Any lots in steep terrain mysteriously have lost pins. That's the problem. If you attempt to replace those lost pins by voodoo or some other method aren't you accepting liability for fixing the bad surveying for the entire subdivision? There's no recourse for the deceased Surveyor of course and the 90 year old Surveyor keeps using his 10 year Statute of Limitations card. I've turned these surveys down, but the clients always seem to find someone who figures out a way to set the lost pins. Any ideas?
I guess +/- 100' is close enough for some folks!!
It shouldn't be for a "Professional" Land Surveyors. These people that hide behind a Statute of Limitations to avoid being required to pay to fix the problems they have created by their incompetent behavior need to be punished. After reading the Statute of Limitations for my State I question weather a fraudulently done survey qualifies. As I read the Statute it refers to improvements that may be in error due to fraudulent surveys, I don't read anywhere in the Statute where the survey itself is exempted by a Statute of Limitation. A 20 to 100 foot error is not an honest mistake it's fraud. Just as stating on your Plat you set Pins with caps when in fact there is either nothing or maybe a nail.
So there is a place for the county surveyor review?!
Skeeter1996, post: 357276, member: 9224 wrote: That's the problem. If you attempt to replace those lost pins by voodoo or some other method aren't you accepting liability for fixing the bad surveying for the entire subdivision? {...] Any ideas?
Well, doesn't the case law of your state have an established order of priority of calls? You've got some original monuments that fix certain corners on the ground and you've got some conflicting calls that have to be reconciled in order to properly determine the positions of the paper corners? That's not that uncommon a problem is it, aside from the fact that the subdivision is of fairly recent vintage, not a product of the 19th century?
So far, the only real test is whether there is one solution that best satisfies the calls presented by the plat. If not, then likely you are looking at boundary agreements and/or amended plats fixing certain lot lines, a highly inefficient solution usually, and one possibly not even available if there are lienholders with superior interests who need to be involved as well.
