So to get back to the original post... You're saying your personal knowledge of the conditions of NGS data points across the nation is better than the NGS database? If that's the case, shouldn't you be updating the datasheets when you use them?
Andy J, post: 389136, member: 44 wrote: So to get back to the original post... You're saying your personal knowledge of the conditions of NGS data points across the nation is better than the NGS database? If that's the case, shouldn't you be updating the datasheets when you use them?
Shouldn't we all? That is one of last things I do on every job before putting it to bed when I have recovered NGS points...
Mr. Griggs speaks the truth here. I totally agree there should be national exams for things outside boundary work. Geodetic surveying, remote sensing, and the like. Even construction layout. Then state boards should then recognize these licenses. NCEES could govern examination as they do the national PLS exam. Geodesy does not change from one state to an another last I checked.
dig...out.
Shelby H. Griggs PLS, post: 389138, member: 335 wrote: Shouldn't we all? That is one of last things I do on every job before putting it to bed when I have recovered NGS points...
Yes!! Very few NGS points where I work, most of my GPS work ties into county and state control marks.
Shelby H. Griggs PLS, post: 389055, member: 335 wrote: I do much the same type of work as John and maybe the OP too and John and I have actually discussed this if I remember correctly. EXCEPT for boundary work all other work product that is usually encompassed under each of the 50 state surveying codes varies very little if at all from one jurisdiction to the next. I am currently licensed in five states, not so I can do boundary surveying in them, BUT because it looks good on RFP's and most west coast states where I live in particular want to fine anyone who utters the word surveying without the license.
I am a big proponent of a license in any US state should be good for ALL surveying and mapping activities in any other state EXCEPT boundary and heck that changes so much even within a state I wouldn't venture more than a county or two if that was my bread and butter. I can guarantee you in the state of California, a boundary survey anyplace north of Redding isn't even the same animal as say one done in Los Angeles, there really is that much difference even though the state is the same and the law is supposed to be the same. On the other hand, is a topo survey any different in those two areas? Is a contour line any different in California than Florida?
Like it or not, technology and market demand has far outpaced surveying laws and much of the stuff in those laws while historically was surveying is now often done with no license by non surveyors and technology anybody can buy. It seems we as a profession could retain some control over who is doing this work by being a little more open to the idea that setting a geodetic point in Brookings, OR is no different than in Crescent City, CA across the border, an artificial political boundary in the sand that makes no difference to the work product. Instead we have created a protect the turf attitude among the 50 states that has created an artificial shortage of qualified folks (PLS's) and it has become a free for all with technology and market demand unleashing a ton of folks who look the other way as long as they can afford the technology. I foresee a time when the tide is going to be so big that the market and the courts are going to steamroll the Boards and win based on archaic land surveying laws that will be found to be nothing more than a protection of the license turf rather than a protection of the public.
How many USGS topo maps, NGS Geodetic surveys and so forth were done in CA with CA PLS's? I venture to say few if any, yet this type of product is required to have a PLS. Is that for protection of the PLS or protection of the public? I would dare say most of the geodetic work produced by NGS is something few PLS's could really do at least until recently anyway (due to technology) and yet this is considered land surveying in most states.
I think if we want to embrace progress it is time for a national surveying license and the states can still issue boundary surveying licenses to cover state specific laws. I think if we embrace that idea we may as a profession retain some oversight, otherwise I think we become boundary surveyors only by default and eventually maybe even electronic records (GIS) may even become good enough to replace that.
SHG
I appreciate you chiming in on this Shelby and respect your thoughts on the matter. However, the fact is that the states are the ones with the licensing authority and not NCEES or any other national organization. Some state laws include construction staking, topographic surveys, etc. along with boundary surveys as the practice of land surveying (California). Other state laws limit the definition to boundary surveys. However first intended, the laws are not there for the benefit of the land surveyors, they are there to protect the public. Do I think each one of you could sufficient perform construction staking or topographic mapping in California just as well as you do in the state(s) you are licensed in? Yes. Are you authorized to do it? Only if you are licensed. There is a difference between qualified and authorized. NCEES includes the broader scope in their Model Law/Rules because representatives from all of the member licensing jurisdictions decided that based on what their individual laws allow for. The Model Law/Rules are generally written to accommodate all the different types of laws that the licensing jurisdictions are required to follow as mandated by their respective lawmakers.
I cannot speak for the other states, but we tend to look at the current national exam as testing exactly what you have stated, for common land surveying tasks/responsibilities regardless of where you are located. The is the purpose of the national exam. And the state exam is for the unique situations encountered within the state's purview.
Ric, I appreciate your thoughts, I understand this is the way it is, my thoughts are since we are all tested pretty much on the same thing in each state we hold a license with EXCEPTION of boundary surveying, maybe it is time to think of that national license for all activities outside of boundary. Since the adoption of the NCESS national test (by most if not all states?) it seems we are tested and qualified just not authorized, but is there some reason the states couldn't figure a way to make that authorization, much the same as a driver's license? Only the state you live in is authorized to issue you a drivers license, BUT all other states recognize that license and allow you to operate a vehicle within their borders because the technical task is pretty much the same across political lines. Definitely will take awhile to get 50 states on board and I don't expect it in my career, BUT I would guess maybe in the next 25-50 years.
I realize licensing boards and tradition are often a big ship to turn in a different direction, BUT I would hope we as a profession would be open to change if warranted.
SHG
