Conducted a survey this weekend of an acre sized rural property because the client is insisting that one or more corners were moved by the previous surveyor after "conspiring" with his neighbor. He has a sealed map (not recorded) from a survey performed in 2008. He is happy with the survey and map. However, he states that another surveyor came in and moved one of the property corners approximately 3'. He also has a map from this surveyor. This map has no seal and is stamped "Preliminary". I told him that the sealed map is the legal map and the other didn't hold water. He wanted to be sure that nothing was moved so I was hired to retrace the survey from the sealed map and report any discrepancies. The client stated that he simply wants to make sure that he still has his 1.01 acres as per the map.
There are high tensions in this situation involving the alleged moving of property corners, racially charged animosity, and unfortunately, guns. (fewer things I despise more than the confluence of ignorance, animosity, and violence)To questions arise:
1 - One of the corners was a Iron Axle sticking out of the ground approximately 1'. It's leaning about 20-25 degrees. Where would you set up over this corner? The top of the axle ... or where it actually enters the ground.
2- The 2008 Surveyor's map reads 1.01 acres. Whereas my survey yielded 1.006 acres. Using the approximate 3 foot location where the client says the corner was at adds an 0.006892 acre to the property to put me in the 1.01 arena. Yes, I absolutely plan on speaking with the surveyor. I just wanted to get the counsel of fellow surveyors before doing so. I respect this surveyor and his work, so how do I frame this conversation of "corner moving"?
Honestly, this usually wouldn't be a big deal for me but tensions are high. And I don't respond well with people ignorant people with weapons.
Thanks in advance!
Stop thinking abou the area. Your area agrees exactly with the 2008 survey you just decided to look further past the the decimal point. In this case the area will not be of any help in determining if the axel was moved.
0.006892???? These numbers are meaningless. You aren't measuring that accurately.
I’ve used acres.XXX since the 1980s, just habit I guess. Until one day a surveyor 2 steps above me in the executive suite went on and on how horribly terrible anything more than 2 places is LOL. Whatever dude. We’ve known each other for 20 years, he just happened into that job a few years ago. I don’t like doing descriptions, everyone is the ultimate expert with the only correct way of writing them.
in the construction world it was asphalt, every last inspector and construction foreman or superintendent was the last final word in asphalt.
acre.xxx is much more common today on the surveys I see.
@on_point I have had guns pulled on me several times surveying. Tires shot on company truck in Colorado. I was not even on the persons property. Shotgun shot and beer bottles while i was doing topo in Memphis oh that was no fun. We did another job in Colorado once the guy was barricaded in and we had police all over watching out for us as we mapped the ROW. I made a wrong turn once and was turning around and then stopped by a man loaded for bear. Lucky i kept my head. Dealing with people sometimes is just dangerous. Surveying can be for sure. Always be alert. I am one of those that always goes to adjoining lots and knock on doors to let them know what i am doing if possible. I know a lot of survey managers that don’t like that approach and kinda indirectly tell crews to just go do this and that. Then get chewed out by same boss when the phone rings and someone is mad about crews being on property. Most people just want the courtesy of being asked and informed. But some are just nuts.
1a. allegedly moved monument: Look for evidence that it was moved such as a hole or otherwise disturbed ground where it supposedly was, a damaged cap if there is one, indication of recent hammer marks on the metal (or whatever material the monument is made of), etc.
If the allegedly moved monument is the axle, does the straight up location coincide with where the landowner says is the location it used to be in?
2. Area: You carried your area calcs out to 6 decimal places. You do realize that 0.000002 ac = 0.08 s.f., right? The area according to your client's map is 1.01 acres. 1.006 ac = 1.01 ac. 1.012892 ac = 1.01 ac. With the data you have, this question is irrelevant. Assuming you are a competent and careful measurer of land, calculating area to the 3rd decimal place is reasonable. Beyond that, you're kidding yourself. 10 acres or more, keep it to the 2nd decimal place. If surveying a very small tract like an easement for a utility box, you can reasonably go to 4. Beyond that, you need to employ equipment and methods that are not practical for land measurement.
3. Firearms: (I know you didn't bring this up, but it became part of the discussion at some point) If either landowner getting violent with you or with anyone while you are there is a real concern, call in local law enforcement to keep the peace while your working if that's available where you are. It is in some places, not others. Otherwise, consider whether the job is worth doing.
3a. Carrying firearms: If you are expecting trouble which might require you to carry a firearm on this project, that's not a reason to carry one. That's a reason to cancel the project until and unless you can have law enforcement on scene when you set corners. That's whether or not you already carry.
The issue of whether of not to carry boils down to if you work in generally unsafe areas, you should be carrying regularly (if so inclined and properly trained). If you don't carry regularly, you're far better off avoiding jobs and other circumstances where you think there is a high likelihood of encountering violence than you are carrying only for those instances. Being properly trained means not only being able to handle your firearm well, but just as importantly, knowing the laws, the temperament of local law enforcement and prosecutors' offices, and having thought through the potential consequences of the aftermath of being involved in a shooting.
1a. The alleged movement took place about 18 months ago and I detected no signs of movement. Turns out that my measurements say that the axle is within a tenth of where it was recorded. (Now it seems that the client is in disbelief ... "he knows what he saw" )
I've called the previous surveyor about the acreage and he has yet to call me back. (this is day 3)
2. I do, in fact, realize what 6 decimal places means in this situation. My client specifically stated "I want every bit of land that I bought and nothing less" ... I figured this would sufficiently quell his request.
3. I actually think I did interject the firearms piece. I appreciate your view and in depth discussion on the matter. The fire arm isn't for when someone gets "a little outta hand". It's for when my, or someone else's life, is in eminent danger. (Whether it be from man or beast).
3a. I don't go to work expecting trouble or extreme encounters with animals. However, I also don't expect to get in a car accident everyday either, yet I still purchase insurance, wear a seatbelt, and carry a first aid kit. I just like to be prepared. Still, your point is well taken. De-escalation and CLEOs have their proper places and should always be employed.
@on_point I have had guns pulled on me several times surveying. Tires shot on company truck in Colorado. I was not even on the persons property. Shotgun shot and beer bottles while i was doing topo in Memphis oh that was no fun. We did another job in Colorado once the guy was barricaded in and we had police all over watching out for us as we mapped the ROW. I made a wrong turn once and was turning around and then stopped by a man loaded for bear. Lucky i kept my head. Dealing with people sometimes is just dangerous. Surveying can be for sure. Always be alert. I am one of those that always goes to adjoining lots and knock on doors to let them know what i am doing if possible. I know a lot of survey managers that don’t like that approach and kinda indirectly tell crews to just go do this and that. Then get chewed out by same boss when the phone rings and someone is mad about crews being on property. Most people just want the courtesy of being asked and informed. But some are just nuts.
@OleManRiver
My experience exactly. Dealing with people, in general, can be dangerous. And believe me, if something goes down, I always want the advantage whether it be skills or equipment. As we say, "Two is one, and one is none". Semper Fidelis, Brother.
The region I work in ppl aren’t very confrontational and are generally reasonable. The handful of times I’ve had run ins with landowners I just explained to them what I’m doing, that I’m just trying to do my job, that I really have no dog in the fight, and if they want me to leave then I’ll leave because it’s really not worth it for me to force the issue. 99% of the time they’ll chat for awhile then let me go about my business and if not I just leave and notify my supervisor/client and let them handle it.
The last thing I would be concerned about is 0.004 acres. Rounded up, 1.006 acres equals 1.01. It shouldn't be that difficult to determine if any of the corners were moved by running the bearings and distances around and where they land you when you stakeout the corner where the leaning axle is.
When I specify areas by square foot I always express that it is more or less. I never go gout more than two decimal places of acreage and always qualify that area as more or less as well.
Most of us are good at what we do but none of us are exempt from cumulative and systematic errors. There is no such thing as the perfect measurement and we are not infallible as humans. Your found evidence and how it works together should be your only concern and the acreage will be what it is after following the hierarchy of evidence.
We might call this thread: "Where significant digits came to die."
I'm still wondering in sum total how many thousands of acres exist across the country at the roundin to 435.6 sqft.
not a challenge to the discussion just an honest question and curiosity.
that's a GIS question for sure..
sorry I'm in both camps. always will be too.
carry on.
I'm pleased I'm on this side of the Pond and not over there!
Looking at this from an outside perspective and from where compromise on the findings is a little more usual, for most architects the actual dimensions are more important - they design a structure which has to fit into a defined dimensioned space, it isn't rubbery stretchy to fit to a particular area.
Hence the measured dimension is practically the more important than the decimal places of area, even if both are recorded.
I'm intrigued by the regular mention of axles in posts: is that how you recycle old vehicles in the USA, converting them to survey markers? In areas where a permanent marker is needed I tend to use ground anchors which have three pig-tailed spikes which push out at the end of driving - its nearly always possible to tell with these if they have been moved and if I use long enough ones (1 metre) it is very obvious if they have been dug out.
I'm intrigued by the regular mention of axles in posts: is that how you recycle old vehicles in the USA, converting them to survey markers?
I don't expect many surveyors today are setting axles. Most are now using concrete reinforcing bar, or something like what you mentioned. I suspect the popularity of axles dates back to the Great Depression when every dime counted, possibly up through the 1960's when cars generally had an 60,000 mile life span. Axles were cheap and plentiful. Also rugged and durable. Another interesting boundary marker is a gun barrel. Either from an old, damaged gun, or from the factory discards pile.
The last thing I would be concerned about is 0.004 acres.
as I'm cruising through another title commitment for an ALTA this just struck me:
b. The street address and total square footage (acreage computed to the nearest 1/1000th of an acre) of the secured property.
So it's a business practice imbued by or leveraged by the title companies and the money people.
interesting.
Remember this: Just because we can does not mean we must.
Log cabins were built based on what the eyeball said. People survived well in those homes.
