Kent McMillan, post: 338817, member: 3 wrote: "Paden's Ongoing Resistance to Title Companies and Their Wholesale Insanity" gets high marks for compressing the right amount of content into the title of a post...."
Well thanks Kent..I think.
Actually the post was my 'Protestant Confessional' of my sinful inability to maintain my composure when dealing with those numbnuts. I have always taken pride in my ability to stay cool under pressure. I found out early in my career as a smart-ass, when confronted with obtuse personalities, one can get better digs in if you remain calm...
But I loose it with these people. I'm ashamed at how flippin' mad I get when I deal with title company personnel. And when angered, I can't guarantee a socially acceptable level of the civility to my remarks. Professionals are suppose to be, well, professional.
I believe my current dealings with them are all in the box now. I can plow ahead happy as a lark and make believe they don't exist....until that dreaded "next time"...
paden cash, post: 338825, member: 20 wrote: Well thanks Kent..I think.
Actually the post was my 'Protestant Confessional' of my sinful inability to maintain my composure when dealing with those numbnuts. I have always taken pride in my ability to stay cool under pressure. [...]
But I loose it with these people. I'm ashamed at how flippin' mad I get when I deal with title company personnel. And when angered, I can't guarantee a socially acceptable level of the civility to my remarks.
What annoys most surveyors about our dealings with title insurers is mostly attributable to personality type. The lawyer or title agent will have found a one-second "discrepancy" in a bearing or will call wondering why a particular something was or wasn't shown on the map. Or they will want a 24 in. x 36 in. map compressed to letter size, arguing that "all the other surveyors do it".
They are checklist type people, Sensation types, who are usually just following a Step 1, 2, 3 procedure and have a backlog of other paper to get off their desks. Recently, a title agent was ready to issue a policy on a tract of land even after I'd written a report describing a serious defect in the chain of title, namely that the record title to the land in question was out of a tract that COULD NOT BE DEFINITELY LOCATED on the ground and that appeared to be more than a mile away from where the parties thought it to be. Apparently, that wasn't on the checklist, so they skipped over that detail and were harrassing me about why no source of title was reflected on the map.
I do a fair amount of work for the title insurance company that they were an agent for and were writing the policy on. I assured them that what they were proposing to do did not meet underwriting standards and that I'd checked with the underwriter's claims department just to be sure that standards hadn't recently changed.
Kent McMillan, post: 338832, member: 3 wrote: What annoys most surveyors about our dealings with title insurers is mostly attributable to personality type..
Agreed. I suppose they're used to beating their drum and having everybody fall in line (with money in hand). Title companies spend other people's money, not their own. I generally always check with my client on matters...and the title company is NEVER my client.
What boils me as much as anything else is the not-so-subtle implication that an impending scheduled closing date should evoke in me some sort of Pavlovian response to attempt to make the impossible happen. I have told several people over the phone I don't care when the closing will be, my work requires a certain amount of time. One simpleton implied if the closing didn't occur, nobody would get paid. I explained I get my money, closing or not. That might require an ugly lawsuit and all sorts of encumbrances on their client's property...but I've done it before and have a good grip on how to do it. I get my money, capisci?
They can all go to hell, but the devil himself would probably get sick of them and send them back up here...
My area must be the exception to the rule: Title companies never hire surveyors around here because we aren't needed for property sales.
I deal with numerous different title companies monthly usually involving title reports or research. I have my preference on which companies I use but all in all my dealings with Title officers has been very positive so don't paint them alll in a bad light.
A good relationship with a title company and the research they have at their fingertips is very worthwhile. For instance, if I'm reviewing a deed and come across a deed reference that I do not have I will email my friendly customer service person of choice and usually within a few hours (sometimes less) the deed is in my mailbox. If I had to go get it myself it would be over half a day of travel, time, etc...
As you say there is often an "it takes what it takes" component to our work. Reduce what you're asking for and it'll take less time. Our "clients" usually accept the amount of time estimated when we explain why. Our clients are coworkers in the department, Foresters, Investigators and Engineers.
I've noticed that there has been a large turnover in the Title Companies personnel from owner to researchers and the newbies may know very much about title search and their way around a Title Policy.
What they are lacking is the understanding and background of using the knowledge base that is in their own offices and their way around the Clerk's Office.
I've told them so many times that I know they have a copy of what they are asking for because I sent it to them 20yrs ago because they have always insisted upon retaining an original of everything produced for every survey that passes thru their door.
Newbies, they try to waste my time every day.
😉
I have on a few occasions had serious problems with title people, enough to make me scream in frustration. But 99% of the time I'm on the best terms with the title officers both here in Tucson and in Phoenix. They love me, love my work, recommend me highly to clients, and, send me any recorded information I need by return e-mail, no charge. All of them know they are free to pick up the phone and I'll gladly chat with them about survey problems. Much better this way.
A Harris, post: 338902, member: 81 wrote: I've noticed that there has been a large turnover in the Title Companies personnel from owner to researchers and the newbies may know very much about title search and their way around a Title Policy.
I'd say that with few exceptions that has not been my experience. The old-time title insurance model has given way to the actuarial model relying upon shorter chains of title and calculating that it is cheaper to pay a few claims than to do as much research as used to be the norm.
That tends to be less true in rural counties where there may only be one abstract company writing title insurance, but many of those have been bought out by the national title insurance companies with the result that the back plant operation has been reduced to a skeleton under the actuarial model.
It all seems to boil down to competing theories of profitability. In theory, if you do a good enough job of title research, you have very few claims to pay. However, that quality of research is expensive, so the competing theory is that a level of research less than exhaustive will be more profitable.
The land title industry has changed. As a surveyor, it is not necessarily for the better. In some respects it has helped my business. I perform my own land title research on many projects. This is some of the easier revenue we earn- measured as a dollars for effort. In most cases, the attorneys are willing to pay us to check the title work -they've experienced the same changes in services from the title companies.
In fairness, the land surveying industry has changed. Like the title industry, it is not necessarily for the better. We have "professionals" swearing their RTN systems are accurate to 1cm- with the misunderstanding they are misusing the equipment; establishing entire boundaries with any two monuments-ignoring calls to senior conveyances; failing to file maps- even when it is required by law; sending out a 1 man crew in dangerous urban or rural settings; not carrying the proper workman's comp (a young surveyor, a friend, was recently hit by a car and hurt very badly. Turns out the licensed surveyor, his grandfather, didn't carry workman's comp- sorry pal.); not paying their staff prevailing wage when required; not paying travel time-undercutting competitors at the expense of the employees. In comparison, I can live with and correct, poor title work. I cannot compete with dishonest business practices.
Taken from the title industry forum (er):
A surveyor is complaining about our title industry:
Paden states "I told the folks over there I checked my own work and if they had surveyor on staff he was welcome to review and sign any changes".
In reference to the original project cost "The last one cost about $7500 and I would be requiring 50% retainage before beginning the work".
Alas, "I explained that even though there was a typo on the document, it was recorded and signed by the mayor and council and the janitor, and I'm not going to completely redo something over a typo".
Boundary establishment can be difficult and subject to evidence based discretion. Spelling and/or numbers? Not so much. For another $500 could they get a document that doesn't have to be amended on the last day due to typographical errors? Maybe a second set of eyes to check the work? The current methodology of proclaimed self checking doesn't seem to be working.
Hopefully, the typographic error wasn't a section, township, or range number or possibly, the elevation of a benchmark.
Just sayin'.
DWoolley
