Nate The Surveyor, post: 385347, member: 291 wrote: How can they ACCEPT or REJECT with understanding, IF they have NEVER used the equipment?
A few years of retracing old work and proper mentoring... I mean, really should everyone learn to use a misery whip before they fire up a chainsaw? Drive a Model T prior to the used Honda Civic their parents bought for hem at age 16?
I am able to understand the world of 200' steel tapes, reading verniers, and long hand calculating because of my mentors, I have always been so F***ing happy that EDMs came around before I had to be productive in the field. Embrace technology, but understand history; anyone worth their salt knows that you don't have to be experienced turning deflection angles with an old transit to be a good surveyor.
@J.Holt I agree your sentiment.
Our CE requires 20 credits per 5 year cycle with a minimum of 3 credits per year in 2 different categories.
Categories are development activities ( conferences,seminars where 10hours = 1 credit with max 10 credits per year) , work based activities (total max 4 credits) and individual categories (voluntary body membership = 1 credit, other category activities[not sure what it means] = 5 credits with max 5 credits per year from this category).
I dont agree completely with this because it means that a surveyor can be renewed registered with our council (PLATO) if he is a member of our voluntary (SAGI) [gives 1 credit per year from category 3] and then just had to work [4 credits per year from category 2]. So he gets 5 credits a year but there is no way to determine if the CPD (continual professional development) actually gets the guy developing or learning. He can be sitting in the middle of the bush, using a T2 and chain and they would be happy. Not that the method is necessarily inferior but how is that "development".
They assume most guys would in an attempt to be profitable seek productive measures which requires usually keeping up with the tech or other developments but we all know what assumptions do.
We do have many guys who are tack sharp and brilliant st what they do,young and old, but we (our council) creates an environment where development is encouraged but not enforced. We also have very clear regulayions stating who is allowed to do survey work. They dont enforce it. Nearly every construction site I've been to in the past 7 or so years did not have a qualified or PLATO registered surveyor as a dedicated site surveyor. We (regsitered surveyors at smaller firms) are usually sub- contracted or brought in for the "difficult" work.
Extract from our regulations :
A person may not practice in or perform any work, whether for reward or
otherwise, which is reserved for any of the categories or branches referred to in
subsection (1), unless he or she is registered in that category or branch or he or she
performs such work under the supervision of a registered person of the same discipline
and such registered person assumes responsibility for any work so performed.
And then later it is said that :
(1) Any person or body who contravenes the provisions of section 13(2) or (5), 15,
16(3), 18(6) or 23(5)(b) or (c) or (6) is guilty of an offence.
(2) Any person convicted of an offence of contravening the provisions of section
13(2) or (5) or 16(3), is liable to a maximum fine equal to double the remuneration
payable to him or her for work done during the period of such contravention or to a
maximum fine equal to the fine calculated according to the ratio determined for a period of three yearsÛªimprisonment in terms of the Adjustment of Fines Act, 1
Yet I have never seen PLATO enforce these rules on anyone. Our voluntary board SAGI is atleast trying to enforce some rules on,as Kent would say El Cheapo Radipo firms,who provide UAV work for volumes and topo work (i. e work designated to surveyors) but are not surveyors.
Well thats my rant I'll be going now
Hope everyone lesrns something new everyday
Dirk
Monte, post: 385346, member: 11913 wrote: Nate, I have met a small handful of licensed surveyors who came out of school who could not even set up an instrument. I am in agreement with your suggestion. How can they sign off on work, and agree that it was done correctly if they have no idea what it takes to do the work correctly? How can they appreciate the work done by the past generations if they have no concept of how the past generations did their work?
Monte, that's the point.
The things that happened in the woods are important. If we don't understand it, it is hard to retrace it.
Nate
J. Holt, post: 387658, member: 84 wrote: A few years of retracing old work and proper mentoring... I mean, really should everyone learn to use a misery whip before they fire up a chainsaw? Drive a Model T prior to the used Honda Civic their parents bought for hem at age 16?
I am able to understand the world of 200' steel tapes, reading verniers, and long hand calculating because of my mentors, I have always been so F***ing happy that EDMs came around before I had to be productive in the field. Embrace technology, but understand history; anyone worth their salt knows that you don't have to be experienced turning deflection angles with an old transit to be a good surveyor.
I get where you're coming from, but there is a difference in driving or cutting wood. In our case most of our work is retracement of older surveying. I don't think you need to be a master of compass and chain, but you should understand it which might help you have a more complete feel of what kind of precisions and what kind of busts that may have occurred in the older times.
dms330, post: 385568, member: 2118 wrote: Greg, I don't mean to give you a hard time but you don't sound like any surveyor I've ever spoken with.
He does to me. There is one that works in the area A. Harris and I inhabit that got his licenses and had never been off the asphalt of Dallas - Fort Worth. He messes up just about every large retracement in the thickets that he does, he has GPS and recovers 2 or 3 corners on the tract rotates the deed calls in and starts setting pins often missing the original corners by several feet because he does not understand that all of the original Headright Survey lines in this area were run with a compass. A degree of error is equal to 100 feet in a mile, do the math an how large of a circle should be acceptable on a line that is 500 varas long when the best that the compass could be read is 15 minutes.
paden cash, post: 385841, member: 20 wrote: I've met Dennis and listened to him speak several times. He's got a great presentation over several topics with a good sense of humor and talent for speaking. His experience is unique that he has worked both sides of the BLM/private portions of our profession. If you ever get the chance to sit in and listen to him you'd better. Three years ago, after an aggravating bout with knee surgery, he confided he wasn't sure how much longer he'd be "doing the circuit". Glad to hear he's still around.
He gave the best class on section subdivision in Lotted Sections I have ever set in on.
J. Holt, post: 387658, member: 84 wrote: A few years of retracing old work and proper mentoring... I mean, really should everyone learn to use a misery whip before they fire up a chainsaw?
Right. I think a thorough understanding of the theory is essential, and using old equipment is also essential in so far as it demonstrates the theory in a practical and readable sense. It shows you the 'why,' and that's crucial for those occasions where you have to think around a problem. I also get how becoming familiar in the actual use of antiquated equipment would be helpful when reading old surveys performed with that equipment. Enough to devote days/weeks/months to it, though? Maybe in my downtime.
Which, for me, working and schooling full time, with a family, amounts to approximately negative 6hrs a day (yes, I'm breaking the laws of physics to get a start in this career).
Excited for my first actual surveying class in a couple weeks, I'll report back on the state of things!
When you actually USE a compass, that has a little sticky needle, and you tap the glass with your finger, to try to get it to read as accurately as possible, and you actually SEE in the field how a WORN fulcrum compass needle behaves, it tends to "Cool your Jets" when you start working with real monuments in the field, and start REJECTING a 40 yr old monument, that is "Off by 3.5'".
I want the new guys to merely suffer for a SHORT time, with the old gear, before they are too critical. Just to bring the point home, that a Rittenhouse Compass, in a wood frame, on a damp day, can be a bit challenging to perfection out of.
Go slow on rejecting old corners.
Real Slow.
Nate
Here, we are looking about N80W. The GPS is on the remains of a 1930xx BLM Dependant Resurvey monument. The Fence Post, on the right side of the photo, is right beside a 1/2" rebar. Somebody did not hold to the BLM corner.
Here is a better look at the 1930xx BLM corner. Apparently a dozer took the top of it off. The can (Used as a concrete form) is possibly all the metal in that thing. (I have seen them with a 5/8" rebar in them) However, this is all that remains. There is also a witness tree, that is still standing.
After digging it out, and taking pics, well, I think the corner is NOT LOST. The brass disk is probably still attached to the top of the concrete monument, and is probably within 100' of this corner. I did not search for it. But, in retrospect, I MAYBE could have found it, and assembled the monument, and done a better job.
Nobody should pincushion these.
Nate
Nate, He's already jumping fences like a deer and he didn't forget the paint. I can't get that kinda help from most the seasoned field hands that help me.
Adam, That is definitely "Fence Jumper". He is so full of energy. He already said "Dad, when you go to pay me for today's work, I want a fishin pole".
He is 5 yrs old. He RUNS up and down hills, all day long. He has high potential as a surveyor. He pays attention, hunts for monuments, and points them out. I think he really is deep inside happy in the woods, at full tilt. He has more energy than anybody in the family.
Thanks for the compliment. Now, if I can keep up with him...
There is something wrong with someone that runs up hills! Even at that age! Too bad school will cage him soon, kids need to be outdoors!
RSAsurv, post: 385931, member: 10950 wrote: The issue is that even now, having been a registered survey tech, worked alongside other surveyors with between 8 - 30 years experience, and after 18 months of that still needs to be baby handled is just not acceptable to me.
One of two things are happening. I am not trying to call you out, just sounds like you are ranting, maybe a pay rate complaint? And I dislike it when college degrees are blamed for employee problems.
1) You have an employee who can not learn like you say. Why not blame the management for hiring such an incompetent person? At the interview they saw a degree and assumed they were a competent person? It sounds to me like the interview process needs some work?
2) The employee is not being trained properly? I like to think that I could train ANYONE to set up a tripod properly given some time to do it. It seems that most companies do not provide time for training and prefer the "drop them in the frying pan" or yell at them louder approach.
"The degree did/didn't do it" is a great excuse. :unamused:
Beau_Immel, post: 388166, member: 8320 wrote: One of two things are happening. I am not trying to call you out, just sounds like you are ranting, maybe a pay rate complaint? And I dislike it when college degrees are blamed for employee problems.
1) You have an employee who can not learn like you say. Why not blame the management for hiring such an incompetent person? At the interview they saw a degree and assumed they were a competent person? It sounds to me like the interview process needs some work?
2) The employee is not being trained properly? I like to think that I could train ANYONE to set up a tripod properly given some time to do it. It seems that most companies do not provide time for training and prefer the "drop them in the frying pan" or yell at them louder approach.
"The degree did/didn't do it" is a great excuse. :unamused:
Hi no I did rant a bit and I apologize. It's mostly from frustration of having to fix someone else work or the person who is intended to save time doesn't, they actually make life more difficult.
And yes I agree,a degree doesn't mean all that much and having one doesn't mean a person is well trained. And yes my management does have a tendency to hire questionably skilled people. Thats a major drawback for me.
Yes and we do not have enough time for teaching/learning. Always seems like we're going through some emergency on the clients behalf. They might be better if I could teach them,but then again I've got a guy doing draught work and lunchtimes he goes out driving to catch pokemon, yet another example of bad hiring.
I actually feel like I shouldnt be the one mentoring a new grad as I'm also young (7 years surveying). I would like to see the 10-15 years experience guys mentoring me once in a while and spending alot of time teaching the guys fresh out of college.
Makes more sense to me
Thanks for the response
Sent from my SM-N920C using Tapatalk
If you want people trained on the current technology at colleges it is very expensive. The equipment manufacturer typically has to donate equipment to the program. The program itself can not afford to purchase all the equipment needed. A class of twenty people would need 10 total stations just to run a lab class with hands on training. So in say two to five years the equipment is obsolete and the program needs to buy new equipment? So a program has to choose a manufacturer and stay with them? What happens when they change manufacturers? How safe do you feel with green employees using your equipment? I sometimes cringe at the sight of "experienced" employees using gear. Students are going to trash gear, plain and simple.
The old equipment can give solid fundamentals and understanding of procedures.
The training should come on the job. Ideally a student would work part time during class or at least in the summer.
