Hey, retired BLM land surveyors.....HI!

Dude

In that case....great!

Keith

I remember you but you probably don't remember me. We met a long time ago at one of the BLM-FS Advanced Cadastral training courses. I believe these courses are now what is being sold to everybody only it is now called CFeds. Same information just a bit pricier.

This was back in the day when BLM was trying to push their sole-authority to survey beyond public domain lands. I believe you were very involved with this issue while you were with BLM, correct? It is clear to me that BLM has sole authority to survey public domain lands (lands that have never left US ownership) but the question of its authority to survey acquired lands has been cleared up. BLM can survey acquired lands, especially for other agencies, but they do not enjoy sole survey responsibilities. The surface managing agency, like FS, would have to request (and pay) for BLM to perform a survey for them. The same holds true for other agencies I believe. FS performs many surveys on their own lands.

The 09 Manual has created a new term call "Federal Interest Lands" but I have not found out where this term originated. It definitely did not come from FLPMA. Do you know where this term originated? Seems like a catch all term. Since the 09 Manual is not regulation within DOI and it only serves as a guidance document for BLM, I don't know how the Federal Interest Lands definition affects any other agency outside BLM do you?

Well, I think that you said a long time ago that you were involved with the rewrite of the 73 Manual. What was your role in developing the 09 Manual?

I guess there are not to many retired BLM folks that visit this board. Must have better things to do.

William D.

I do not remember you, but maybe with a last name and which Forest you were in, I might remember?

Anyways, I really don't want to join in the argument of Federal survey authority as there is only one agency that has it and it is not the FS.

It always amazed me that the FS rationale would use surveyors that were licensed in the States with authority to survey PRIVATE LAND, to have these surveyors survey the Federal Land under FS administrative control!

The term "Federal Interest Lands" was not created by the 2009 Manual as we used the term back in the days when I was in the BLM Division of Cadastral Survey in Washington D. C. and was probably first used in a DOI Solicitor's opinion? That would have been back in the 80's when there were issues being discussed at the Secretary level on FS survey authority. You may have read some of that correspondence between the Department of Interior (BLM) and the Department of Agriculture (FS).

I also clearly remember hearing testimony to the Congressional committee by Department of Agriculture personnel during hearings on the proposed Small Tracts Act in the 80's, that the necessary surveys for the Small Tracts Act would be conducted by BLM. This was an answer to a direct question from a Congressman on who would do the necessary survey. As you are probably aware, the ink was not dry on that Act, when the CFR came out with procedures for the FS to conduct the surveys. That is now:

§ 254.43 Surveys.
top
All necessary tract surveys of National Forest System land shall be conducted by a licensed private surveyor under Forest Service instructions, contracted by the person applying for the conveyance, or by a Forest Service surveyor. The person will also be required to have all Federal property boundaries resulting from a conveyance marked and posted to Forest Service standards.

It would be my opinion that this CFR is without Statute authority!

Anyways.....

If you have a 2009 Manual, you might look at the inside couple of pages and will see the signed statement from an Assistant Secretary,DOI, stating that the Manual was created subject to my direction and control.

This is not exactly in line with your statement that the Manual is not regulation within DOI!

For your information, I did have a contract with BLM for input into the 2009 Manual.

If you really want to debate these old issues, we can, but get your facts straight first.

Anybody who is wondering about Federal Interest Lands, should Google it and find out.

Keith

William D.

The Forest Service and Bureau of Land Management (BLM) cooperative survey program is documented in the Interagency Memorandum of Agreement dated March 19, 1980 (FSM 1531.1) and updated with an October 1989 Memorandum of Agreement. In addition to other provisions identified in this section, the agreement provides Federal survey authority for qualified Forest Service employees to accomplish specific land surveying projects under special instructions issued by BLM. (43 USC Sec 751) Boundary line surveys requiring Federal survey authority shall be conducted under the provisions of this agreement, or as a reimbursable BLM survey

FSH 5509.15 - BOUNDARY MANAGEMENT HANDBOOK (Draft)

William D.

Thanks Detz, whoever you are?

It should be a no-brainer for the FS to do their surveys under the written authorization from BLM. If there are any disagreements with the survey/resurvey, BLM will defend them.

Just to be clear on this; these surveys/resurveys are officially approved by BLM, since they are under BLM Special Instructions (authorizes the survey/resurvey) and under BLM Assignment Instructions (authorizes a specific land surveyor).

Keith

Keith

I just read the BLM website for most of my information. In the Federal Register notice on the availability of the 09 Manual http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/2009/pdf/E9-23216.pdf it states that the Manual is not a legislative rule under the Administrative Procedures Act (APA) that would have required notice and comment rulemaking. So the Manual was not developed and published through the notice and comment procedures outlined in section 553 of the APA, so it is not a regulation according to BLM information provided on their website. It is "....internal Department of the Interior guidance."

Also the 09 Manual states at 1-3:
"This Manual is not intended to limit the survey authority or practices of any Federal agency other than the BLM."

The 09 Manual was signed by the Assistant Secretary, Lands and Minerals Management under her "direction and control" and not for the Secretary. BLM falls under her direction and control. There are four other Assistant Secretaries in DOI that have other agency responsibilities and after looking at Title 43 U.S.C. 2 and 1201, I don't see how that authority applies beyond BLM.

These are facts coming BLM themselves. I don't need to debate you. Just do some research. If the BLM wanted the Manual to be regulatory it should have followed the procedural requirements and matters prescribed by law instead of sidestepping them.

William D.

I agree that the Manual is not, "a legislative rule".

Did you read this portion of your cite:

The predecessor to the BLM, the
General Land Office, first created the
Manual of Surveying Instructions in
1855. Over the years, the Manual has
become the standard by which 256
Federal Authority Surveyors, 278
Certified Federal Surveyors, and some
50,000 private surveyors adhere to in
conducting surveys on the PLSS. All 50
States use the Manual for testing and
licensing professional surveyors. The
American Bar Association, and real
estate and title insurance industries also
look to the Manual for guidance.

If you knew anything about Department protocol, you would know that an Assistant Secretary speaks for the Secretary.

I am sure you have a point to all this?

Keith

William D.

Since you seem to be taking words out of context, like another surveyor who cites certain sentences of the Manual to prove a point, tell us what a legislative rule is?

Might have something to do with legislation?

Keith

Keith

BLM took over 7 years to rewrite the Manual this go around. If they really wanted it to have full force and effect of law it should have followed the prescribed protocol that would have made it so. I keep hearing BLM tell us these things but I never see it substantiated anywhere else. I would like to see an unbiased review. You are biased.

I agree with Lucas when he said that a State should not adopt the 09 Manual into their statutes because it just does not apply to individual state laws. The 09 Manual could be referenced as a guidance document, just like any other survey book in your library.

My last name is Daugherty and I worked for a short while on the St. Joe National Forest before going private in another state. You may not remember me because that was back in your drinking days.

http://administrativelaw.uslegal.com/administrative-agency-rulemaking/legislative-rules/

Legislative rule is one of the categories of rules developed by administrative agencies in the exercise of lawmaking powers. The federal Administrative Procedure Act (APA) provides guidelines to administrative agencies in proposing and enacting rules. Administrative rulemaking is the process by which administrative agencies adopt rules that have the force of law. Sometimes, when administrative agencies possess the expertise and specialization to deal with certain matters, the legislature delegates its rulemaking power to the agencies.

According to the federal APA, administrative rules are differentiated into legislative rules, interpretive rules, procedural rules, and general statements of policy. However, an agency’s rule has the same impact on regulated parties whether it is legislative, interpretive, procedural, or general statements on policy.

A legislative rule is a rule adopted by an administrative agency according to the procedures laid down by the APA. This rule has the force of law and imposes new duties on affected parties. A legislative rule is created in concurrence with the legislature’s intention. An administrative agency creates a legislative rule for the proper implementation of a general statutory provision.

Through legislative rules, administrative agencies provide new law, rights, or duties which bring a change in existing laws. Legislative rules also impose fresh rights and obligations on public. Administrative rulemaking in the form of legislative rules creates a substantial impact on the people to whom the rules apply. Therefore, legislative rules are also known as substantive rules.[ii] Legislative rules are generally implementary rules to existing laws.