Yeah, but we have a few calves too, so they eat that much... One is her calf, and the other are orphans, from a nearby farm.
Shame on you, Nate. You are supposed to take orphans into your home, not put them out in the barn with the cows.
Oh, you mean you don't have their mothers, just them. That's different. As Emily Litella (Gilda Radner on SNL) would say......Never mind.
My bad... 2000 lbs. One ton. Sorry.
BobKrohn, post: 355734, member: 6827 wrote: Don't know about what others are saying about "good map" but looking at it for less than 2.56 seconds I see a horrendous distance mismatch on NE line.
Maybe a transposition of top number?
Many of the lots that bound the old Puna trail a.k.a the old Volcano trail (along the northerly boundary of the subdivision) have measured distances and sometimes azimuths that differ significantly from record. In fact, I actually remember surveying one of those lots and finding the front to back distance to be long 7'(+- ). My crew and I spent a fair amount of time traversing the trail trying to find the back monuments. The trail was well defined so the brush cutting wasn't nearly as difficult as other lots in Fern Forest. After traversing the trail many lots from our property, we were able to locate a well marked (for Puna subdivision standards) railroad spike and retraced it back to our lot corner. Every monument (railroad spikes) we located along the trail was long in distance front to back as compared to record.
HICALS thanks for the insight. Local knowledge is important.
I think sloppy/substandard work is rather common in those "Vacation Subdivisions"... troubles get found when they mature into full time year round homes. In my home town area there were a number of "Tent Site" subs with tiny postage stamp lots created in the 20's and 30's, that are today a rats nest of full time homes.
Peter Ehlert, post: 355858, member: 60 wrote: HICALS thanks for the insight. Local knowledge is important.
I think sloppy/substandard work is rather common in those "Vacation Subdivisions"... troubles get found when they mature into full time year round homes. In my home town area there were a number of "Tent Site" subs with tiny postage stamp lots created in the 20's and 30's, that are today a rats nest of full time homes.
If you are interested in the history of the Puna subdivisions, a good book to read is Land and Power in Hawaii. It provides an interesting background to the land development at the time in Hawaii. To say the least, the planning department was much less restrictive at the time and gave the developers a lot of leeway with the subdivision development.
As far as substandard survey work, I believe that part of the reason that the subdivision plats never were amended (to show record distances and bearings closer to measured) is 1) the low land value (in the late 90's, some of the 3 acre "spaghetti" lots were available for 3000-$5000) and 2) the subdivision is part of the land court (Torrens) system and the developers probably did not want to deal with the bureaucratic steps required to amend the plat. For other lots, not bordering the Old Puna trail, the front to back distances were much closer and usually reasonable to record (bearing in mind the conditions and the time that the monuments were set). What was typically the issue was that the front to back bearings were not perpendicular (as per record) and with most of the lot dimensions being 125' x 1045.44', it was easy to be off once you reached the back (even if many front lot corner monuments were tied together). Based on the findings along the northerly boundary, it seems that the subdivision was surveyed from the southerly boundary first (along the forest reserve) and all the error was placed along the northerly boundary (the lots bordering the Old Puna trail). It's important to note that many of the rural Puna subdivisions were "done on the cheap" with the goal of maximizing lots while minimizing infrastructure.
HICALS, post: 355887, member: 6788 wrote: If you are interested in the history of the Puna subdivisions, a good book to read is Land and Power in Hawaii. It provides an interesting background to the land development at the time in Hawaii. To say the least, the planning department was much less restrictive at the time and gave the developers a lot of leeway with the subdivision development.
As far as substandard survey work, I believe that part of the reason that the subdivision plats never were amended (to show record distances and bearings closer to measured) is 1) the low land value (in the late 90's, some of the 3 acre "spaghetti" lots were available for 3000-$5000) and 2) the subdivision is part of the land court (Torrens) system and the developers probably did not want to deal with the bureaucratic steps required to amend the plat. For other lots, not bordering the Old Puna trail, the front to back distances were much closer and usually reasonable to record (bearing in mind the conditions and the time that the monuments were set). What was typically the issue was that the front to back bearings were not perpendicular (as per record) and with most of the lot dimensions being 125' x 1045.44', it was easy to be off once you reached the back (even if many front lot corner monuments were tied together). Based on the findings along the northerly boundary, it seems that the subdivision was surveyed from the southerly boundary first (along the forest reserve) and all the error was placed along the northerly boundary (the lots bordering the Old Puna trail). It's important to note that many of the rural Puna subdivisions were "done on the cheap" with the goal of maximizing lots while minimizing infrastructure.
fascinating. it sounds quite parallel to what was done with much of the denuded junk land after the Great Redwoods were cut along the Russian River in Northern California.
Did this happen as a result of the fall of the sugar cane industry? Fern Forest does not seem to be all that old, but maybe lava cleared it long ago.
What is with the Old Puna Trail? Yerno's lot has it on the Northerly border.
Peter Ehlert, post: 355739, member: 60 wrote: are you referring to 464.82 feet record vs. 456.36 feet measured and the 19 minutes of difference in direction?
Yes, the distance value.
As others are saying, not unusual for that area.
RE: low property cost.
Usually an indicator of high living costs.
Just looked up the price of gasoline... $4.17 gal
Of course you're never driving very far.
Peter Ehlert, post: 355893, member: 60 wrote: fascinating. it sounds quite parallel to what was done with much of the denuded junk land after the Great Redwoods were cut along the Russian River in Northern California.
Did this happen as a result of the fall of the sugar cane industry? Fern Forest does not seem to be all that old, but maybe lava cleared it long ago.
What is with the Old Puna Trail? Yerno's lot has it on the Northerly border.
From what I've read, it happened because of a rather "harmonious" relationship between developers and politicians at the time. This relationship is quite extensively examined in the Land and Power in Hawaii book that I previously mentioned. Most of the sugar cane was grown along the Hamakua coast, north of Hilo, where the soil base was much deeper. The Puna area was and is much more affected by lava flows so in most places, there is little soil. Certain areas closer to Volcano village and the National Park l(ess affected by recent lava flows) have deeper soil. On the Land Court maps it shows that the subdivision was registered in 1958.
I am not too sure why the tax map shows the trail marked as the Old Puna Trail, while the subdivision map shows it as the Old Volcano trail (its more commonly known name). The trail is owned in fee by the State of Hawaii and is considered a public right of way, running from Hilo to Volcano. I found the following article about the trail ( http://www.bizjournals.com/pacific/stories/2004/07/19/daily44.html ).
BobKrohn, post: 355905, member: 6827 wrote: Yes, the distance value.
As others are saying, not unusual for that area.RE: low property cost.
Usually an indicator of high living costs.
Just looked up the price of gasoline... $4.17 gal
Of course you're never driving very far.
I paid $2.50 last week, but food stuffs is say 25% more than San Diego, Milk is double. Land is cheap, wages are Low.
HICALS, post: 355912, member: 6788 wrote: From what I've read, it happened because of a rather "harmonious" relationship between developers and politicians at the time. This relationship is quite extensively examined in the Land and Power in Hawaii book that I previously mentioned. Most of the sugar cane was grown along the Hamakua coast, north of Hilo, where the soil base was much deeper. The Puna area was and is much more affected by lava flows so in most places, there is little soil. Certain areas closer to Volcano village and the National Park l(ess affected by recent lava flows) have deeper soil. On the Land Court maps it shows that the subdivision was registered in 1958.
I am not too sure why the tax map shows the trail marked as the Old Puna Trail, while the subdivision map shows it as the Old Volcano trail (its more commonly known name). The trail is owned in fee by the State of Hawaii and is considered a public right of way, running from Hilo to Volcano. I found the following article about the trail ( http://www.bizjournals.com/pacific/stories/2004/07/19/daily44.html ).
I never drilled down to the correct subdivision plat page, maybe later tonight I will tackle that again.
http://www.amazon.com/Land-Power-Hawaii-Democratic-Years/dp/0824813030 ... I just bought myself an early Bday present.
soil at the kids place is about 6-8" average, with contiguous smooth faced black lava below that. yerno sweeps the soil into the flower beds and uses the lava as a walkway, rather attractive. what little there is, the soil is quite rich, fabulous gardens that I envy.
earlier you mentioned "land court (Torrens) system"... I have never been exposed to that, I thought it only existed in the East coast.
land court (Torrens) system
We have Torrens Titles here which has been around for well over a 100 years.
There were still old 'General Law' (still a few) Deeds (Conveyances) running in parallel but these were gradually transferred to Torrens Titles.
It is a far superior system and removes the issues relating to deeds and conveyances not properly executed and or held in solicitors offices and not elsewhere.
I find this interesting as being a USA state they adopted a different system.
Has this ever been considered on 'The Mainland'?
Sorry for intruding - https://surveyorconnect.com/threads/torrens-titles-hawaii.325357/&apos ;">I've start a new post (link to) but just mention here.
With regards to costs.
I remember my first trip to the supermarket (groceries) and saw some beautiful oranges that looked nice, bit pricey but I needed some.
Came down to earth quickly when realised at checkout the price was per Pound not Kilo's!
oops - times 2.2 to what I was used to back home. No more oranges on Hawaii (Oahu)
My reading on early settlement of those Islands was interesting, but not always pleasant.
There were some rogues back then. What has changed?
Richard, post: 355917, member: 833 wrote: land court (Torrens) system
We have Torrens Titles here which has been around for well over a 100 years.
There were still old 'General Law' (still a few) Deeds (Conveyances) running in parallel but these were gradually transferred to Torrens Titles.
It is a far superior system and removes the issues relating to deeds and conveyances not properly executed and or held in solicitors offices and not elsewhere.
I find this interesting as being a USA state they adopted a different system.
Has this ever been considered on 'The Mainland'?
Sorry for intruding - https://surveyorconnect.com/threads/torrens-titles-hawaii.325357/&apos ;">I've start a new post (link to) but just mention here.With regards to costs.
I remember my first trip to the supermarket (groceries) and saw some beautiful oranges that looked nice, bit pricey but I needed some.
Came down to earth quickly when realised at checkout the price was per Pound not Kilo's!
oops - times 2.2 to what I was used to back home. No more oranges on Hawaii (Oahu)My reading on early settlement of those Islands was interesting, but not always pleasant.
There were some rogues back then. What has changed?
Hawaii has both the regular system and the land court system. Surveyors that survey in the land court system need to hold a separate land court license. I believe that it has distinct advantages over the regular system. The main complaint, however, that I have heard regarding the land court system in Hawaii is that it is overly bureaucratic, slow, and much more expensive than the regular system. Here is a link that briefly explains both recording system: http://hawaiilitigation.com/hawaii-real-estate-law-101-two-recording-systems/ .
peter
I survey in that area quite often.
have your son in law contact me at profile email.
I recognize that style of map.
Hawaii as some (IMO) weak standards as far as mapping goes. Love and hate it at the same time.
HICALS has it right re. Land Court
Peter-
missing contact in the profile
google dlb and associates
lanceboyle93101, post: 355934, member: 2061 wrote: Peter-
missing contact in the profile
google dlb and associates
thanks, will do
Here's some additional documents.
Mainah, post: 355969, member: 9098 wrote: Here's some additional documents.
Excellent! You saved me a bunch of searching, that is Exactly what I was searching for.
some people are earning some serious Karma Points, thanks all of you.
Here's another.
Mainah, post: 356032, member: 9098 wrote: Here's another.
thanks!
so now we know it was a 1958 Land Court subdivision...
I spoke with my daughter just now, now they know where to look (here), and who to contact.
Thanks to the group effort (Dan Berg was a key element) my daughter and son-in-law now have a copy of the closing survey.
They have been following this thread with much appreciation of all of the help.
Nate: get your cow on the plane, there is good money in Milk over there!