Knowledge, experience, and character.
Land surveying involves enough disciplines to make various personality types both advantage in some respects and liabilities in others. I don't do well with administration. I can do it. But it isn't my strong suit. I know good administrators. They make sure all the paperwork is complete and all of the files are properly cataloged. I tend to be more creative. This helps with problem solving and with making information presentable. Both problem solving and administration are necessary for surveying, but neither are typically found as personality traits in the same person. Strength of character (ie integrity) is what compels an individual to perform those tasks outside their personality strengths in order to complete the job. It's what drives a person to set the monuments they call for, even if no one for two generations will ever see those monuments. It's what drives a person to do sufficient research to determine a defensible boundary.
Knowledge provides the tools to accomplish a task (operations of law and mathematics), Experience determines the best use of that knowledge (hold the uncalled for monument? use this benchmark? hold the bearing or the distance?), character insures that knowledge and experience are properly applied.
Personality types will certainly dictate the job satisfaction an individual will enjoy in a particular profession, which could certainly lead to improved or diminished performance, but it is tangential to the actual exercise of the profession. Knowledge. Experience. Character.
"You can NOT send a crew out alone to do a boundary; that's art and experience and instinct. You need to be there. Period."
I'd maybe disagree insofar as it has become relatively easy to recover boundary these days. This may not be the case in California, but currently pin flags come in a 1/2"x
18" size, with different brand names.
That was way too subtle for me.
Unless it wasn't meant to be subtle.
In which case...
Nooo, my head is beginning to hurt.
What are you really saying?
Am I wrong? Have I always been wrong? Will I continue to be wrong?
What if I protect myself by buying gold?
No, too much to think about.
I'm going to eat a cookie and read my book and, in a while, go to bed.
Don
Knowledge, experience, and character.
>Strength of character (ie integrity) is what compels an individual to perform those tasks outside their personality strengths in order to complete the job. It's what drives a person to set the monuments they call for, even if no one for two generations will ever see those monuments.
So, in your view, merely complying with the rules of professional practice takes "strength of character"? Novel concept considering that every licensed surveyor in Texas is required to comply with the same rules. (The point is that when everyone is required to do something, doing it isn't an unusual accomplishment.)
> Knowledge provides the tools to accomplish a task (operations of law and mathematics), Experience determines the best use of that knowledge (hold the uncalled for monument? use this benchmark? hold the bearing or the distance?), character insures that knowledge and experience are properly applied.
That would be true after the project is essentially complete, after all the evidence is in hand and decisions are to be made. Where personality type is determinative is in actually getting to that point. The surveyor with well developed intuition will know when the discrepancies mean there is much more to be done. The other types will be satisfied to roll the job out the door and move on.
> Personality types will certainly dictate the job satisfaction an individual will enjoy in a particular profession ...
Hardly. You may have something else in mind. By personality type, what was meant is whether one is (a) an Introvert or an Extrovert, (b) whether they naturally tend to make judgments based upon Thinking or Feeling, (c) whether their Intuition or Sensing function is the better developed, i.e. whether they are more focused on pattern than details and what is implied by what is there or merely what is there, and (d) which of the last four functions, Thinking, Feeling, Intuition, or Sensing, is the least developed, most inferior part of their personality.
I agree with you, Don.
Well I suppose your post is the other half of the picture, but it wasn't really meant to be that profound, deep or subtle.
No one will ever read my posts and get the impression of a tactful poster.
I had pin cushions in mind, and, they say a picture is worth a thousand words, you would actually had to have seen what I had over the last week to get a feel for why my small tongue-in-cheek pin flag post seemed appropriate.
Knowledge, experience, and character.
> So, in your view, merely complying with the rules of professional practice takes "strength of character"? Novel concept considering that every licensed surveyor in Texas is required to comply with the same rules. (The point is that when everyone is required to do something, doing it isn't an unusual accomplishment.)
>
If it were natural, there would be no need for requirements or standards. I would suggest the overwhelming evidence leads us to conclude that simply creating a rule does not necessarily guarantee compliance. This is particularly true when there is little enforcement or threat of penalty. The only compulsion left is personal integrity.
> > Personality types will certainly dictate the job satisfaction an individual will enjoy in a particular profession ...
>
> Hardly. You may have something else in mind. By personality type, what was meant is whether one is (a) an Introvert or an Extrovert, (b) whether they naturally tend to make judgments based upon Thinking or Feeling, (c) whether their Intuition or Sensing function is the better developed, i.e. whether they are more focused on pattern than details and what is implied by what is there or merely what is there, and (d) which of the last four functions, Thinking, Feeling, Intuition, or Sensing, is the least developed, most inferior part of their personality.
I understand what was meant. I don't think you followed what I meant. An introvert will not have much job satisfaction working the front desk of the Hyatt. An extrovert will not have much job satisfaction sorting mail in a mail room. Certainly there are personality traits that are more congruent with surveying leading to a better enjoyment of the profession. Only in a tangential way should that affect the quality of one's work though. Ultimately knowledge, experience and character will be the better predictors.
Knowledge, experience, and character.
> An introvert will not have much job satisfaction working the front desk of the Hyatt. An extrovert will not have much job satisfaction sorting mail in a mail room. Certainly there are personality traits that are more congruent with surveying leading to a better enjoyment of the profession. Only in a tangential way should that affect the quality of one's work though.
Actually, if you recognize that "job satisfaction" translates as "job performance" you recognize that the reason introverts aren't hired to sit at the front desk of the Hyatt is that they tend not to do a very good job of it. The work itself is a poor fit to their personalities. That is exactly the point of mentioning the importance of personality type in surveying work. A type unsuited to a task won't do it very well.
From your remarks, I'd think that you yourself probably score as an ISF_ type, which tends in the surveying profession to be a technologist. I'm thinking ISFJ (which is also Shelby Griggs's type, if I recall correctly). What did I win?
Knowledge, experience, and character.
Interesting. I just took an MBTI test. Fun stuff.
It's pretty clear that some personalities won't like surveying and will tend to self select away from the industry.
I also don't think we should try and judge surveyors by their personality type. I know many good surveyors and they sure as hell aren't a single personality type. Personality types are a preference only and are not indicative of capability.
This gets even more involved when we start looking at running a survey business, rather than just doing surveying. Some personalities make great surveyors, but aren't necessarily the best people for running the business, talking to clients, etc.
Knowledge, experience, and character.
That's impressive Kent. You went four for four... You missed them all. In fairness I am only slightly t and p.
Knowledge, experience, and character.
> Interesting. I just took an MBTI test. Fun stuff.
>
> It's pretty clear that some personalities won't like surveying and will tend to self select away from the industry.
Yes, there's obviously a very good reason why a personality type that is fairly rare in the general population, INTJ, is surprisingly common among land surveyors.
> I also don't think we should try and judge surveyors by their personality type. I know many good surveyors and they sure as hell aren't a single personality type. Personality types are a preference only and are not indicative of capability.
Well, I'd say that personality is more of a native indicator of aptitude than anything. If you look carefully at the influence of type, I expect that you'll see different identifiable styles of practice that can mostly be laid to type.
> This gets even more involved when we start looking at running a survey business, rather than just doing surveying. Some personalities make great surveyors, but aren't necessarily the best people for running the business, talking to clients, etc.
Yes, types definitely tend to get sorted in organizations, the great irony being that the best surveyors don't usually make the best managers. :>
Knowledge, experience, and character.
> That's impressive Kent. You went four for four... You missed them all. In fairness I am only slightly t and p.
Well, what's interesting about you is that you don't post like a thinking type. Wanting to value "character" is typical of a feeling type. Sensing types tend to value experience more than aptitude, being more task-oriented and simply wanting someone to do a specific task.
If the Myers-Briggs only scored you as a slight Thinking preference, my hunch is that you are an ISFJ who has had to do work contrary to type. Over time, if you still score as a _NTP, we'll have to revisit the question. :>
I apologize, R.J.
It is so difficult to communicate an inflection with only the written word.
I missed your point, I'm sorry,
Don
> Now if an employer wants to give applicants some kind of psychological profile test and base it all on that; then they will likely miss out on some fine candidates.
The whole point of type is that it explains so much about aptitudes and approaches. I'm willing to bet that different styles of practice can be identified and explained by the dominant type in the organization.
BTW, I've observed that it's practically diagnostic of a Feeling type that they object to classifying personality types, whereas Thinking types have no particular problem with the idea at all.
I'm Disappointed, Kent
I'm disappointed that you didn't jump all over the "industry" reference.
I well remember some of your remarks to a particular OK surveyor when he talked about the "survey industry."
🙂
Don
Knowledge, experience, and character.
How did we know how to act before Myers and Briggs were born? 😉
Kent puts way to much stock into Pop Psychology.
I'm Disappointed, Kent
> I'm disappointed that you didn't jump all over the "industry" reference.
CSS is in Australia. I worry less about whether surveying is a profession or an industry in Australia than I do about the same question in the context of Texas and the surrounding states.
I'm Disappointed, Kent
It takes a worried man to sing a worried song.
Knowledge, experience, and character.
> How did we know how to act before Myers and Briggs were born?
Actually, the Myers-Briggs personality types are based upon previous psychological work by the Swiss psychologist Carl Jung. Jung (who was an INTP type) originally coined the terms introvert and extrovert that we take for granted as descriptive of one aspect of personality.
Jung observed that the people he dealt with tended to have a couple of functions of their personalities better developed and usually one that was inferior. Specifically, he observed that people tended to make judgments according to Thinking or Feeling. By "Feeling", Jung meant a word that translates better as "sentiment" than as "emotion". Essentially, the Thinking types naturally made judgments on a semi-objective basis, without reference to their own personal reactions. The Feeling types tended to be stuck at the level of their personal reactions and not to deal with matters on an objective level as thinking does.
He also observed that some people received information in fundamentally different styles, one very concrete and detail-oriented, the other more grounded in patterns and possibilities. Switzerland was full of the former, people with what Jung called a well-developed Sensing or Sensation function. Jung himself was the latter, an Intuitive.
Jung's work on personality is now nearly a century old. Since that time new techniques have made it possible to observe differences in how various individuals use their brains to engage problems or tasks. I assume we take the idea of hemisphere dominance for granted now. Jung's observations were very early, but very astute. Type is best regarded as a practical tool.
Myers-Briggs test
By the way, as a bit of a footnote, here's the Wikipedia entry for Isabel Briggs Myers, one of the creators of the Myers-Briggs type test.
Wikipedia entry for Isabel Briggs Myers
Her father was Lyman Briggs, a scientist who at one time directed the National Bureau of Standards. As I recall, Isabel described him as an ISFJ type.