22° And I Have To Do A Perc Test

I figured all of you Northerners could handle the cold. We hear how much you griped when it got hot, but we didn't. We complain when it gets cold.

🙂

20° and light snow here

[flash width=480 height=385] http://www.youtube.com/v/crFQpOCDfEc?fs=1&hl=en_US [/flash]

Paul

I seem to remember hearing that the DEP required it to be above 40 degrees. I don’t do perc tests, so I could be mistaken.

>... I will dig and presoak today and perc test tomorrow.

If you presoak in 20 degree temperatures, won't the water freeze over night and make the ground impermeable?

Peter Lazio

If you dig the hole today and come back tomorrow, what you will have is a hole that is frost encrusted.....I'm guessing the regulatory agency involved has rules regarding temperature and perc tests.

Logically (if that has any place in regulations), if you can pass it with part of the ground frozen you should also be able to pass when it is warm, so there would be no reason for a lower temperature regulation for the test.

Paul-

I do not do PERC Tests so this makes me an expert !

Any chance of putting straw bales over the excavated site after your 'moistening' ?

Cheers

Derek

"Eventually the 1/4 acre will be subdivided but we have to first determine that the agreed on area is of sufficient size."
I don't know about Pennsylvania, but in Alabama, a septic system must be on a parcel of at least 15,000 square feet. And this 1/4 acre is to be subdivided?

Put a small pile of newspaper over each hole and
that little bit of insulation will keep the soil from freezing.

I suspect that the depth of the percolation hole is 20 to 24 inches
so it's still above freezing at that depth.

In Pennsylvania there is no minimum lot size for a septic system
HOWEVERyou need to meet the setback requirements. 100 ft from
any well, 10 ft from property line etc. Also, you can have the system
on an adjacent property if there is a permanent easement. Generally you need 3/4 to one acre to fit everything on the lot.

Steve

It's a half-acre in Texas

Well, whatever the "rules" the purpose is to find out how the system might be expected to perform. The goal is to replicate the conditions that will exist if it is built.

How to do that in varying temperatures? I would try a lateral excavation, place a board across at the correct level, fill with dirt. Re-excavate tomorrow and quickly fill and read.

Course in reality it's all bogus anyway. Half the time they don't put it where the test was, the other half they compact the heck out of the area so the test is no longer accurate anyway.

Perk tests are not supposed to be a sponge test.

Cold perc testing what fun! I was the perc test queen at my last job. It seemed like many of them were scheduled for cold weather, lucky me. Of course, I did not have to dig the holes or pour the water, that was handled by the backhoe operator and helper.

I was there to tell them where to dig if the area I designed did not pass.

Most perc holes in MD are dug at 3'-4' 8'-9' and deeper (below the frost line). Only sand mound percs were dug at 18" to 24", and you still had to have a backhoe there to push in the infiltrometer. Although in PA I bet a lot of your percs are for sand mound systems with the soils you have.

Nothing more fun than standing around watching water drain out of a hole 😉

Get your warmies on!

Julie

The P.Q. Is 1/3 Acre, The 1/4 Acre Is From The Farm Tract

There is an adjacent residential lot that was owned by the former spouse of the prior P.Q. lot. Ugly divorce. The adjacent lot owner then drilled a new well as close to the rear of the spouse, now P.Q., as possible to prevent any possible septic repairs. They knew the septic was in the field but failed to make that information known. Several years ago the farmer sold 1 1/4 additional acres to the neighbor. The P.Q. owner subsequently gets married and has a baby. Septic system fails, but no one files an official complaint. I had surveyed the P.Q. several years ago for a garage variance and we begin talks with the farmer. P.Q. owner gets and agreement to allow septic system testing on farm tract as close as possible to P.Q. lot but wants us to wait until crop is off. Fourteen months ago we excavate for soil logs, famer gets upset because he had planted alfalfa without us knowing. It is impossible to wait until the alfalfa crop is done since it is a 5 year cycle. We are told to leave the farm.

Now the it is lawyer time. I prepare a map with a 1/4 acre that includes the 2 good soil logs for an in ground system, some neighbor's have sand mounds. The proposed line is an extension of the P.Q. side line and an extension of the 1 1/4 acre rear line. It simply removes a protruding corner from his field. I do additional investigation as I prepare a design to install a interim hold tank on the P.Q. we find that the septic line from the house goes directly to the field where septage bubbles to the surface about 20' away. This essentially proves that a the prior farm owner had installed the system prior to selling and that we have a existing easemnent of use. The case just got easier. All spring, summer and fall long the farmer is just too wrapped up in farming to be P.Q. baby number 2 is now toddling.

Three weeks ago the farmer sends an offer letter, which knocked my socks off. He does not want to deal with an easement on his farm, but he will sell the 1/4 acre for $10,000, with a $500 dollar immediate down payment to grant an easement on the 1/4 acre to continue testing. On top of that he includes the offer of a temporary 25' easement along the P.Q. sideline for construction purposes. Everyone agrees give him the money as quick as possible. Agreement is signed last week, I stake out prior soil loges, probable septic area and new lot corners and meet the township Septic Enforcement Officer on site.

As I said on Monday there was no frost, today it was about 6" deep but not yet solid. After 6" the digging is easy except for the few rocks that are always in the wrong place. The 24" holes were presoaked after dark thirty and are covered. I expect to design the system over the weekend and get it approved ASAP. Then I will prepare a sketch subdivision for submission in January. We will seek a ton of waivers to expedite it as a "Subdivision of Necessity". No new lots, only doing what is necessary to comply with the PA septic design laws.

I get some information about the farmer from the SEO and I then stopped by his farm shop on Monday to let him know that we would be digging test holes. He is pleasant as can be with no immediate crop problems on his horizon. I learn that he is working with the SEO to correct a malfunctioning system on a house he rents out. In addition he had an employee deep chisel plow off the top of a septic tank in another of his fields. This one just happended to be 100' away from the easement it was supposed to be in. I believe his dealing with the same problems himself opened him up to a very reasonable solution for my P.Q.

What I have not yet told you is the the P.Q. owner is the son of a cousin of mine. This cousin on my father's side owns my mother's mother's farm where we hunt every year. This is the same cousin who drives down the lane every snowstorm and plows out my mother's driveway. Standard pay for that work is one fresh baked apple pie. This work is being done at the family rate, don't ask, and no septic work will be billed until it is approved. I have yet to figure out how cheap the subdivision work will be, but minimum wage is in the ballpark.

Now you know the rest of the story.

Paul in PA

The P.Q. Is 1/3 Acre, The 1/4 Acre Is From The Farm Tract

Wow, what a mess! I have worked on some doozies but nothing that bad. Sounds like there is some resolution in sight, but not really to your benefit, except the apple pie and hunting privileges (although sometimes that is enough :-).

Perc testing was always pretty fun for me, it was some of the clients that were not. Spoiled rotten babies some of them were when things did not go their way.

I am hijacking here, but one of my favorite percs was when the son in law rode up on his mule to check things out. He rode off around 11 am, and I saw his mule tied up in town when I went out to get lunch at 12.

Julie

The P.Q. Is 1/3 Acre, The 1/4 Acre Is From The Farm Tract

I always liked perc tests. They used to send me out on those when I was barely qualified to do anything else. Watching that water seep down in those holes and trying to remember to check the level at the right time, that was pretty challenging for an early 20's hippie. The ones that were a little bit of a stress-out were the seepage pit ones where the big huge auger would come out and drill a big old hole and then the water truck would come out and fill it up and the backhoe would scoop out the mantle test holes with the soil logs, etc. Not as peaceful as the normal perc test.

Of course, perc tests could be exciting, like when I and another guy were digging the holes with a two-man auger and we hit a nest of ground hornets. Other than that, it was basically a kick-back day when I did those.

BTW-Julie. Hopefully Mr. Schaut is asleep by now because he wouldn't want anybody doing a "deed plot". I'm just saying.

The P.Q. Is 1/3 Acre, The 1/4 Acre Is From The Farm Tract

> I always liked perc tests. They used to send me out on those when I was barely qualified to do anything else. Watching that water seep down in those holes and trying to remember to check the level at the right time, that was pretty challenging for an early 20's hippie. The ones that were a little bit of a stress-out were the seepage pit ones where the big huge auger would come out and drill a big old hole and then the water truck would come out and fill it up and the backhoe would scoop out the mantle test holes with the soil logs, etc. Not as peaceful as the normal perc test.
>
> Of course, perc tests could be exciting, like when I and another guy were digging the holes with a two-man auger and we hit a nest of ground hornets. Other than that, it was basically a kick-back day when I did those.
>
> BTW-Julie. Hopefully Mr. Schaut is asleep by now because he wouldn't want anybody doing a "deed plot". I'm just saying.

Sheesh, too bad you were just watching, not getting to do on the fly subdivision design in the field while the excavator was on the clock! Obviously, You are the MAN! I am so impressed!! Tell me more, YODA! 😀

Julie

I'm not familiar with the:-D smiley face. Do you think I was saying something derogatory about perc testers? I did plenty of on-the-fly subdivision design but when I was doing the perc testing, I was pretty much of a flunky. Had I been more than a flunky, I might have had the ability to incorporate the perc results into the subd. design.

Julie

> I'm not familiar with the:-D smiley face. Do you think I was saying something derogatory about perc testers? I did plenty of on-the-fly subdivision design but when I was doing the perc testing, I was pretty much of a flunky. Had I been more than a flunky, I might have had the ability to incorporate the perc results into the subd. design.

Sorry, I must have taken it the wrong way, that can happen with the written word as opposed to talking, thought you were dissin' me, and I have been (well, should say was) doing this stuff for a long time (20 years) along with boundary work and construction stakeout.

Around here the perc tests are handled by the health dept. and the "engineer (ie me)" in the field is the developers advocate for where the tests are dug and moved if necessary. I have never had to time a perc test, although I did keep tabs to make sure the health dept. was being accurate.

I enjoyed large farm boundary work much more.

Julie

No biggy. I've been doing this stuff for about 40 years and that's about when they sent me out to do the perc tests. I thought it was fun. I could sit out there and do whatever as long as I checked each hole every half hour and wrote it down. Most of them went fine, some I could tell were not going to pass but that was not my worry at the time. Then I started "plotting deeds" and that's when I became a "pile of garbage" (inside joke w/Mr. Schaut). I can hear him cackling from here.