Hello-
I am a new employee working in a government shop that produces land descriptions by non surveyors. I know- a big debate there, but that is how it is and it is legal, so moving on.
I am seeking to improve the in house processes and offer a more robust and professional product.?ÿ
I am seeking advice as to what low cost 2D software is available to provide for closure checks and basic drafting of land descriptions.
I am looking at Q-Cogo, Free-Cogo, Co-Pan Lite, DC_Survey, as well as Pro Cogo Lot Plot.
So far I have seen how quickly it escalates from a need to check a land description for closure/geometric integrity, to the need for a 2D CAD package for the drafting of exhibits and existing parcel geometry and more in depth analysis.
Any thoughts on starting from scratch with a quality control process for land descriptions written by non surveyors?
I understand this is a big ask but feel free to respond with what ever you have.
Thanks,
Frank
I've been using Greenbrier Graphics Deedplotter for 15 years.?ÿ It is simple, versatile and exports dxf polylines.?ÿ Also converts well between chains, feet, meters, poles, varas maybe.?ÿ Deeds can all be entered on 10-key.?ÿ A?ÿsimple, inexpensive solution for CAD independent checks of maps and legal descriptions
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@david-kendall Thanks Dave really appreciate you taking the time to relay your experience.
Beyond the reciting of bearings and distances, the key components of a proper description are the 'qualifiers'.?ÿ These are stated points in common with adjoiners, references to monuments of record, deeds, maps and those elements necessary for retracement without ambiguity.?ÿ These are the 'bounds' of a metes-and-bounds description.
I'm a district surveyor for a dot. My job is to proof read legal descriptions and maps. My co-heart and I use Deed Plotter. A slick inexpensive program. We receive Word doc's. Use the mouse and highlight the text from the commence call to the pob to the pob. Deed Plotter draws a map. We then go to the editor screen and put a forward slash in front of the commence call to exclude it. Then draw the map again. It gives closure and area. It will also label the legs of the parcel. Gives a good check of the description. We save that with a file name. Then we go back to the editor page and erase the forward slash from in front of the commencement call, hit the enter button to get a space on top of the calls. Then we enter the SPC easting and northing coordinates of the commencement?ÿ point. Save that to to the file name with dxf at the end to make it different. Draw the map again. We then save the drawing to a dxf file. From there we can open a cad file and dxf that file in. Hopefully the dxf map will fit the cad drawing. Most of the time it does. But problems can be seen. Like curves to the right being called curves to the left in the description. Easy fix. Then in the cad program we can export to a KLM file to be imported in the Google Earth. There we can see glaring coordinate problems. Cheap easy and Worth the money.
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sorry Dave, didn't catch your post. We have our deed and map checking down to a cookie cutter science. Don't key in much any more, but we can. Most of our deeds are in Word doc's.
@warren-smith Thanks Warren! Yep- you need a complete document, focusing only on the calls is a mistake I have seen a few times. Missing plat references, and other relevant data results in ambiguity.
@jules-j Thanks so much for your in depth review! I will be going with deed plotter for sure. The price is right and I believe it does what we need it to do as far as a robust independent check goes. Funny I have to admit I went to the website before I posted it and sort of moved it to the "maybe" list due to my bias with the website, it just looked old and unsupported- which is not the case!
@jules-j Thanks so much for your in depth review! I will be going with deed plotter for sure. The price is right and I believe it does what we need it to do as far as a robust independent check goes. Funny I have to admit I went to the website before I posted it and sort of moved it to the "maybe" list due to my bias with the website, it just looked old and unsupported- which is not the case!
You're very welcomed. It's not fancy looking. But it cover's everything needed to do a quick map and deed check. Heck they have a 30 day free trial. The thing that tripped me out was entering the east before the north. But it imports into SPC maps correct.?ÿ
Technically, it looks like Deedplotter may be just the ticket. Politically, if you are going to be confronting people about substandard product, you are going to want to really blow them away with your evidence. And as a new employee, now is the time to make demands about software purchases. While this deed plotter may well be just the ticket, I'd be talking about getting something much more full featured. Something that you could do a lot more with as your range of duties expands. I'm thinking C3d, Microstation, Carlson, Microsurvey - something like that. Do that, and if you really feel the need for Deedplotter later you could drop the $200 out of your own pocket.?ÿ
On the other end of the scale, you could build a spreadsheet for this purpose very quickly. No direct cost.?ÿ
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We use Bentley Open Roads as our primary design software. Techs design in cad and develop deeds. We run the deeds through Deed Plotter for correctness, and area check. Reference the checked deed dxf file in Open Roads in real world SPC in about 10 minutes. We catch a lot of mistakes quickly. Deed Plotter is not a design software, but a check tool.?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ
@norman-oklahoma Yes much to think about moving forward. Agreed that there is a need for full featured drafting software, but the costs would be hard to justify as we have a survey section with Civil 3D, and they are the authority on survey matters. I will be discussing those needs with my supervisors in the future as needed. For now I am just tackling process improvement as directed; specific to in house generated land descriptions. I just need to be very diplomatic and stay within my task list. I am putting together some training materials to get us on to best practices with regards to land descriptions. Obviously there is a need to check what is produced and have a graphic representation sketch/map/exhibit so I think adopting something like deedplotter would be a good first step and agreeable to all parties. I do agree that now would be a good time to build out the system- if I was more familiar but I think I just need to see where we are headed, and address the current situation. Thanks for the feedback I will keep it in mind, hate to miss out on planting seeds!
I know- a big debate there, but that is how it is and it is legal, so moving on.
Welcome Frank.
Sounds like some good leads on closure checks.
You'll also want to start with a checklist to confirm the non-mathematical information in the legal description - MTRS, adjoiners, etc. before you dig into the geometric components. In Alaska all fee title transfers are required to subdivided lots/parcels so all legal descriptions are of surveyed lands (there are some exceptions prior to this statute where paper plats exist - not many are still around these days) so you'll want to verify parent parcels and calls to adjoiners in your checklist. A good spreadsheet with links to sources of information will speed up these processes - BLMs SDMS is foundational.
I'm not sure where you are getting your information about who can/can't prepare legal descriptions but it sounds like you are hearing how some folks wish things were instead of how they legally exist.
You mention a big debate but I'm not aware of any debate on this topic... What's the argument supporting that you don't need to be licensed in Alaska to prepare legal descriptions?
In Alaska you are required by law to be licensed to prepare property descriptions per AS 08.48.281 Prohibited Practice, AS 08.48.321 Evidence of Practice, AS08.48.341 Definitions (14) "practice of land surveying" see the last 6 words of this definition - "and property descriptions that represent these surveys"
AS 08.48.331 lists the exemptions... unless the person preparing the description is (3) an officer or employee of the United States government practicing architecture, engineering, land surveying, or landscape architecture as required by the person??s official capacity; or (4) an employee or a subordinate of a person registered under this chapter if the work or service is done under the direct supervision of a person registered under this chapter; then the person preparing the property description is required to be licensed.
Whoever is telling you that a person doesn't need to be licensed to prepare legal descriptions needs to produce some evidence in support of that idea - Just saying something doesn't make it so.?ÿ
If it's legal - just send me the legal descriptions and the names of the individuals preparing them and I'll forward them to the AELS investigator who can tell me that there's no violation. Otherwise, as a licensed professional you are required to comply with 12AAC 36.210. Professional Conduct (a) A registrant (6) shall inform the board if he or she has knowledge or reason to believe that another person or firm might be in violation of AS 08.48, or a regulation adopted under it, and shall cooperate with the board by furnishing all further information or assistance required;?ÿ
Start here: https://www.commerce.alaska.gov/web/portals/5/pub/adm4604.pdf
I realize that there's a lot of pressure to conform to how things were done - but as a professional you are beholden to protect the public and adhere to the laws put in place to protect the public - THIS holds above the wishes of your supervisor and THIS is what makes you a professional.
Best of luck,
DOT descriptions describe everything in relation to where the highway control is while property descriptions describe the property in relation to where original monuments are and are prepared by a survey considering junior and senior rights with accessories to monuments and ownership and last recorded description rather than existing owner information that does not have descriptions.
I have always used Carlson Surveyor 1 cogo program for all deed checks, traverse closures and analyzing the location of everything and to decide where everything should be.
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@a-harris Thank you- I will look into Carlson Surveyor 1, I have always struggled trying to determine what Carlson products are necessary and worthwhile, so this really helps.
