Carlson & Starnet Misclosure Calculation

ENTRY ERRORS???

To compare traverse misclosures should not the total traversed distances be the same?

One should also see comparable turned angles and distances?

Without further explanation your traverses are a puzzle.

Paul in PA

sireath, post: 372374, member: 9370 wrote: Hi guys,

I am used to using Starnet for my adjustments.

Recently I am required by the project to show misclosure to my traverses. When entered them into Carlson and Starnet, they both give me different values. While I understand that the distance are different as Starnet just close the angles but not the distance for the last line. However shouldn't the angular values be similar since they are raw values. Which leads me to think either of them are using adjusted values.

Am I right?

Listed below are my raw values

TB 2
T 1 124-01-02.999 59.73735 'MK
T 3 180-42-52.999 99.75907 'MK
T 4 93-13-46.999 92.13185 'MK
T 5 275-38-39.999 128.63914 'MK
T 6 213-19-37.999 112.45017 'MK
T 7 233-19-51.999 97.17182 'MK
T 8 271-24-33.000 62.99486 'MK
T 9 160-55-26.000 278.27961 'MK
T 13 117-13-05.999 42.66100 'SM14177
T 14 331-24-05.500 67.23535 'SM03644
T 15 178-41-20.124 67.47245 'MK
T 16 177-49-46.999 51.32597 'MK
T 100 177-30-11.000 40.23310 'MK
T 17 184-36-02.000 56.48745 'MK
TE 2 340-10-42.999 1

Starnet Misclosure
TRAVERSE 1
Error Angular = 66.61 Sec, 15 Angles, 4.44 Sec/Angle
Error Linear = 0.0018 S, 0.0072 E
Horiz Precision = 0.0074 Error in 1256.5792, 1:170111, 5.88 PPM

From To Unadj Azimuth Unadj Dist
1 2 0-00--0.00 BS
1 3 124-00-58.56 59.7373
3 4 124-43-47.12 99.7591
4 5 37-57-29.67 92.1319
5 6 133-36-05.23 128.6391
6 7 166-55-38.79 112.4502
7 8 220-15-26.35 97.1718
8 9 311-39-54.91 62.9949
9 13 292-35-16.47 278.2796
13 14 229-48-18.02 42.6610
14 15 21-12-19.08 67.2353
15 16 19-53-34.77 67.4724
16 100 17-43-17.32 51.3260
100 17 15-13-23.88 40.2331
17 2 19-49-21.44 56.4875
2 1 180-00--0.00 FS

Carlson Misclosure

Traverse Closures
=================

Traverse points:
2,1,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,13,14,15,16,100,17,2,1
Loop Traverse; Interior direction reference;
Compute angle closure.
Compute vertical closure.
BS IP FS Angle FS H. Dist. FS V. Dist.
2 1 3 124-01'05.5" 59.738 0.000
1 3 4 180-42'58.1" 99.759 0.001
3 4 5 093-13'40.1" 92.132 0.001
4 5 6 275-38'23.7" 128.638 0.001
5 6 7 213-19'45.2" 112.450 0.001
6 7 8 233-19'46.4" 97.172 0.001
7 8 9 271-24'24.1" 62.995 0.000
8 9 13 160-55'23.6" 278.278 0.005
9 13 14 117-12'57.3" 42.661 0.000
13 14 15 331-24'07.2" 67.235 0.000
14 15 16 178-41'22.2" 67.472 0.000
15 16 100 177-49'42.9" 51.326 0.000
16 100 17 177-30'12.6" 40.234 0.000
100 17 2 184-35'56.1" 56.487 0.000
17 2 1 340-10'46.2" 98.197 0.001
Closing Az: 180-00'00.0"
Computed Closing Az: 180-00'31.2"
Total angular error: 000-00'31.2"
Angular error per point: 000-00'02.1"

Correct Ending Coordinates, North: 10000.000 East: 10000.000
Ending Coordinates, North: 9999.996 East: 10000.010
Error, N: -0.004 E: 0.010 Total: 0.011 Brg: 293-20'36.3"
Distance Traversed: 1354.774 Closure: 1: 121988

Angles are different in the Carlson group. Is one program averaging from repetitive angles and the other not?

Duane Frymire, post: 372381, member: 110 wrote: Angles are different in the Carlson group. Is one program averaging from repetitive angles and the other not?

Duane Frymire, post: 372381, member: 110 wrote: Angles are different in the Carlson group. Is one program averaging from repetitive angles and the other not?

sireath, post: 372374, member: 9370 wrote: Hi guys,

I am used to using Starnet for my adjustments.

Recently I am required by the project to show misclosure to my traverses. When entered them into Carlson and Starnet, they both give me different values. While I understand that the distance are different as Starnet just close the angles but not the distance for the last line. However shouldn't the angular values be similar since they are raw values. Which leads me to think either of them are using adjusted values.

Am I right?

Listed below are my raw values

TB 2
T 1 124-01-02.999 59.73735 'MK
T 3 180-42-52.999 99.75907 'MK
T 4 93-13-46.999 92.13185 'MK
T 5 275-38-39.999 128.63914 'MK
T 6 213-19-37.999 112.45017 'MK
T 7 233-19-51.999 97.17182 'MK
T 8 271-24-33.000 62.99486 'MK
T 9 160-55-26.000 278.27961 'MK
T 13 117-13-05.999 42.66100 'SM14177
T 14 331-24-05.500 67.23535 'SM03644
T 15 178-41-20.124 67.47245 'MK
T 16 177-49-46.999 51.32597 'MK
T 100 177-30-11.000 40.23310 'MK
T 17 184-36-02.000 56.48745 'MK
TE 2 340-10-42.999 1

Starnet Misclosure
TRAVERSE 1
Error Angular = 66.61 Sec, 15 Angles, 4.44 Sec/Angle
Error Linear = 0.0018 S, 0.0072 E
Horiz Precision = 0.0074 Error in 1256.5792, 1:170111, 5.88 PPM

From To Unadj Azimuth Unadj Dist
1 2 0-00--0.00 BS
1 3 124-00-58.56 59.7373
3 4 124-43-47.12 99.7591
4 5 37-57-29.67 92.1319
5 6 133-36-05.23 128.6391
6 7 166-55-38.79 112.4502
7 8 220-15-26.35 97.1718
8 9 311-39-54.91 62.9949
9 13 292-35-16.47 278.2796
13 14 229-48-18.02 42.6610
14 15 21-12-19.08 67.2353
15 16 19-53-34.77 67.4724
16 100 17-43-17.32 51.3260
100 17 15-13-23.88 40.2331
17 2 19-49-21.44 56.4875
2 1 180-00--0.00 FS

Carlson Misclosure

Traverse Closures
=================

Traverse points:
2,1,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,13,14,15,16,100,17,2,1
Loop Traverse; Interior direction reference;
Compute angle closure.
Compute vertical closure.
BS IP FS Angle FS H. Dist. FS V. Dist.
2 1 3 124-01'05.5" 59.738 0.000
1 3 4 180-42'58.1" 99.759 0.001
3 4 5 093-13'40.1" 92.132 0.001
4 5 6 275-38'23.7" 128.638 0.001
5 6 7 213-19'45.2" 112.450 0.001
6 7 8 233-19'46.4" 97.172 0.001
7 8 9 271-24'24.1" 62.995 0.000
8 9 13 160-55'23.6" 278.278 0.005
9 13 14 117-12'57.3" 42.661 0.000
13 14 15 331-24'07.2" 67.235 0.000
14 15 16 178-41'22.2" 67.472 0.000
15 16 100 177-49'42.9" 51.326 0.000
16 100 17 177-30'12.6" 40.234 0.000
100 17 2 184-35'56.1" 56.487 0.000
17 2 1 340-10'46.2" 98.197 0.001
Closing Az: 180-00'00.0"
Computed Closing Az: 180-00'31.2"
Total angular error: 000-00'31.2"
Angular error per point: 000-00'02.1"

Correct Ending Coordinates, North: 10000.000 East: 10000.000
Ending Coordinates, North: 9999.996 East: 10000.010
Error, N: -0.004 E: 0.010 Total: 0.011 Brg: 293-20'36.3"
Distance Traversed: 1354.774 Closure: 1: 121988

Survnet appears to be displaying closure after an angle adjustment. If I remember correctly Survnet displays both closures, before and after angle adjustment if you choose to perform the angle adjustment. The closures are independent of the least squares adjustment. The closure options were added to satisfy NC statutory requirements. Survnet was originally written by a NC surveyor.

Mr. Stallings - " Survnet was originally written by a NC surveyor." :good:

T.W.

D Stallings, post: 372385, member: 11711 wrote: Survnet appears to be displaying closure after an angle adjustment. If I remember correctly Survnet displays both closures, before and after angle adjustment if you choose to perform the angle adjustment. The closures are independent of the least squares adjustment. The closure options were added to satisfy NC statutory requirements. Survnet was originally written by a NC surveyor.

That makes sense, but then why are they still reporting an angular error? There is either 2 or 4 seconds of angular error per point. Once angles are adjusted there should be none.

Thanks guys so far for pointing me somewhere.

Originally have turned 4 sets of readings. and just threw it into the converters to do their things. Only difference is that for Starnet, had to manually edit them into traverse lines instead of M-Lines as when they are converted into.

Looks like I am going to have to manually com out my misclosures for now till I figure these out.

For Survnet, I only did a pre processing and no adjustment yet as I wanted to check the closures first before proceeding into LSA.

sireath, post: 372395, member: 9370 wrote: Thanks guys so far for pointing me somewhere.

Originally have turned 4 sets of readings. and just threw it into the converters to do their things. Only difference is that for Starnet, had to manually edit them into traverse lines instead of M-Lines as when they are converted into.

Looks like I am going to have to manually com out my misclosures for now till I figure these out.

For Survnet, I only did a pre processing and no adjustment yet as I wanted to check the closures first before proceeding into LSA.

D Stallings, post: 372418, member: 11711 wrote:

I do not have access to the newer versions of Survnet. I will leave it to others to comment further.

D Stallings, post: 372419, member: 11711 wrote: I do not have access to the newer versions of Survnet. I will leave it to others to comment further.

I am using V6 and not the newer version.

I am using SurvNet v8. I believe you left off a section of the closure report in your original post. Following is the complete closure report for a small loop traverse with angle adjustment. Notice there are two sections, one computing closure without an angle balance and another after an angle adjustment. As noted earlier these computations have nothing to do with the least squares adjustment performed by SurvNet. I made no effort in formatting the report below.

Traverse Closures
=================

Traverse points:
CBP,DSP,SPTS,CCTS,PKTS,CBP,DSP
Loop Traverse; Interior direction reference;
Compute angle closure.
Compute vertical closure.
BS IP FS Angle FS H. Dist. FS V. Dist.
CBP DSP SPTS 275-24'01.7" 697.882 -23.270
DSP SPTS CCTS 271-27'50.0" 415.862 0.130
SPTS CCTS PKTS 175-07'20.5" 484.492 -5.969
CCTS PKTS CBP 267-02'58.3" 628.424 10.459
PKTS CBP DSP 270-57'59.0" 973.222 18.640
Closing Az: N 85-22'05.0"E
Computed Closing Az: N 85-22'14.5"E
Total angular error: 000-00'09.5"
Angular error per point: 000-00'01.9"

Correct Ending Coordinates, North: 733821.940 East: 2125372.650
Ending Coordinates, North: 733821.936 East: 2125372.538
Error, N: -0.004 E: -0.112 Total: 0.112 Brg: N 88-03'49.2"E
Distance Traversed: 3199.882 Closure: 1:28524
Correct Ending Elevation: 273.030
Ending Elevation: 273.020
Elevation Error: -0.010

Closure After Angle Adjustment
CBP DSP SPTS 275-23'59.8" 697.882 -23.270
DSP SPTS CCTS 271-27'48.1" 415.862 0.130
SPTS CCTS PKTS 175-07'18.6" 484.492 -5.969
CCTS PKTS CBP 267-02'56.4" 628.424 10.459
PKTS CBP DSP 270-57'57.1" 973.222 18.640
Closing Az: N 85-22'05.0"E
Computed Closing Az: N 85-22'05.0"E
Total angular error: 000-00'00.0"
Angular error per point: 000-00'00.0"

Correct Ending Coordinates, North: 733821.940 East: 2125372.650
Ending Coordinates, North: 733821.958 East: 2125372.518
Error, N: 0.018 E: -0.132 Total: 0.133 Brg: S 82-26'40.0"E
Distance Traversed: 3199.882 Closure: 1:24025

N-2*180