roger_LS, post: 423889, member: 11550 wrote: You're starting to get it but I wouldn't use the word "overcharge" You're placing a price on the value of what you're providing and the market will determine whether this price will hold. Something is worth what someone will pay for it. It's a risk/reward analysis. The cost is high enough above hourly rates that spread out across many jobs you will make significantly more even when factoring in unforeseen difficulties that may come up in certain jobs. Of course, you have to know the local area well for this to work and it's definitely not applicable to all situations.
As long as you recognize that the basic practice is ethically highly questionable to the extent that it places a surveyor in a situation where he would have motive to trim corners or overlook additional necessary work in order to cut losses in providing a service, I'm satisfied.
Generally, your philosophy is to transfer fees paid by clients who would otherwise pay less for the actual work performed in a fair transaction to underwrite the cost of work done for others. I wonder whether your clients understand that you're overcharging them so that you can undercharge someone else,
Kent McMillan, post: 423891, member: 3 wrote: You may object to the paraphrase, but what you actually posted was:
Clients are made aware of problems that I know will or may occur prior to contracting. They are also made aware of potential issues not included in my price. If unforeseen (significant) problems arise we agree on a path and price forward.
In what way is the following not a fair restatement of that:
So, basically, you give your clients a fixed price for performing some particular surveying service if "no problems are encountered" with the understanding that if you run into problems you will charge more?
"No problems are encountered " implies i am not considering potential issues up front. The mark of a Professional is letting a client know what to expect. When things happen that you should have known about the lesson is at your expense. When no thorough Professional could see it coming its time to talk money and schedule. That's a far cry from 'no problems'.
thebionicman, post: 423898, member: 8136 wrote: "No problems are encountered " implies i am not considering potential issues up front. The mark of a Professional is letting a client know what to expect. When things happen that you should have known about the lesson is at your expense. When no thorough Professional could see it coming its time to talk money and schedule. That's a far cry from 'no problems'.
Well, how much of a problem is something that is anticipated and explicitly covered by the fixed fee? That would seem to be business as usual. A problem in that context is something that enlarges the scope of work that you did not expect to perform, right? I don't particularly envy a land surveyor who must describe the optimistic scenario as being covered by the fixed fee with all deviations to be extras.
Lump sum-fixed fee, as Frame pointed out, is the way to make your pocket book sing (good choice of words). While we do a fair amount of T&M work we go for lump sum contracts as much as possible. It's probably close to a 50-50 split with our contracts. Lump sum, by far, offers the most profit potential. The key is a well structured contract that each party understands and executes.
WA-ID Surveyor, post: 423919, member: 6294 wrote: Lump sum-fixed fee, as Frame pointed out, is the way to make your pocket book sing (good choice of words). While we do a fair amount of T&M work we go for lump sum contracts as much as possible. It's probably close to a 50-50 split with our contracts. Lump sum, by far, offers the most profit potential. The key is a well structured contract that each party understands and executes.
Lump sum, quoted estimates or not-to-exceed contracts can bite an outfit in the butt if you're not careful; and I'm not talking about "blowing" a budgeted amount of time. While most of us are well aware of the mechanics of a job, sometimes sub-ordinates can be a little zealous if they simply "know enough about the job to be dangerous".
Case in point: I was performing a topo for an engineer and my PC had been newly introduced to estimating his and his crew's time on the job. It may have even been one of the first jobs I allowed him to watch the process and get his input. The area was adjacent to a residential plat and I remember wanting a good amount of data on the interior of the subdivision in the way of either property corners or cl control. We had probably estimated 6 to 8 hours for the function. The PC completed the topo and some rudimentary boundary work but was faced with only a few hours left in the day to scour up some existing control in the subdivision. Seeing a chance to trim his field time and "save" going back out the next day, I received only some abbreviated data. In a way I had to admire his ambition to "maximize" fees v time expended, but I had to explain to him it cannot be at the cost of the job.
A well executed and prepared survey is going to take a specific, and at times predictable, amount of time. The way to make money is in the prep of the quote, not in the trimming of the field work.
paden cash, post: 423920, member: 20 wrote: A well executed and prepared survey is going to take a specific, and at times predictable, amount of time. The way to make money is in the prep of the quote, not in the trimming of the field work.
Yes, I don't doubt that engineering surveying projects such as that topo you described, tend to be fairly routine adventures subject to estimation within narrow limits. What concerns me are the LAND SURVEYS that necessarily deal with, to quote a notorious underachiever in the cost estimation department, known unknowns and unknown unknowns.
Kent McMillan, post: 423921, member: 3 wrote: Yes, I don't doubt that engineering surveying projects such as that topo you described, tend to be fairly routine adventures subject to estimation within narrow limits. What concerns me are the LAND SURVEYS that necessarily deal with, to quote a notorious underachiever in the cost estimation department, known unknowns and unknown unknowns.
That's where my many years of experience as a professional pay off. In PLSS Oklahoma one can actually reach a point where they've seen pretty much everything at least once; unlike Texas where the more experience one has merely means the more overwhelmed one can become when planning a job....IF one doesn't spend too much time trying to let everybody else know how much they don't know....;)
paden cash, post: 423943, member: 20 wrote: In PLSS Oklahoma one can actually reach a point where they've seen pretty much everything at least once; unlike Texas where the more experience one has merely means the more overwhelmed one can become when planning a job.
Gad, I've pretty much already seen everything Oklahoma has on offer and it only took a couple of trips through it on the interstate, not actually living there. Actually, what professional experience should lead to is the realization that surveys take what they take and that pretending that anything should have a fixed price is a recipe for either an expensive education or a quick trip into the demi-monde of the profession unless you're able to squeeze enough money ouf of all the trusting souls you have as clients to subsidize the inevitable misadventures.
Kent McMillan, post: 423909, member: 3 wrote: Well, how much of a problem is something that is anticipated and explicitly covered by the fixed fee? That would seem to be business as usual. A problem in that context is something that enlarges the scope of work that you did not expect to perform, right? I don't particularly envy a land surveyor who must describe the optimistic scenario as being covered by the fixed fee with all deviations to be extras.
You still didn't read what i wrote.
thebionicman, post: 424012, member: 8136 wrote: You still didn't read what i wrote.
Actually, I did. Just because you don't like how what you described sounds when paraphrased doesn't mean that the paraphrase is incorrect.
Paraphrasing is actually an excellent tool to be used whenever an attorney or anyone else tries to use artful language because it tends to cut through the phrasing to the essence of what has been said or written.
Kent McMillan, post: 424014, member: 3 wrote: Actually, I did. Just because you don't like how what you described sounds when paraphrased doesn't mean that the paraphrase is incorrect.
Paraphrasing is actually an excellent tool to be used whenever an attorney or anyone else tries to use artful language because it tends to cut through the phrasing to the essence of what has been said or written.
Except when it's actually crap and unrelated to what was said.
thebionicman, post: 424016, member: 8136 wrote: Except when it's actually crap and unrelated to what was said.
Well what you posted above was:
"My prices include what i will do for the fee and potential issues that will raise the price. The model must work because my clients return again and again. A little a la carte menu sounds more like burger king than a Professional Service."
My paraphrase was that you set out an optimistic scenario that your fixed price was based upon and if other "issues" arose that were inconsistent with the optimistic scenario that you would demand more money for your services.
I'm afraid that is a fair paraphrase of the practice you described. It's just like a remodelling contractor who isn't sure what lies behind the sheetrock or what the state of the plumbing really is.
Kent McMillan, post: 424017, member: 3 wrote: Well what you posted above was:
"My prices include what i will do for the fee and potential issues that will raise the price. The model must work because my clients return again and again. A little a la carte menu sounds more like burger king than a Professional Service."My paraphrase was that you set out an optimistic scenario that your fixed price was based upon and if other "issues" arose that were inconsistent with the optimistic scenario that you would demand more money for your services.
I'm afraid that is a fair paraphrase of the practice you described. It's just like a remodelling contractor who isn't sure what lies behind the sheetrock or what the state of the plumbing really is.
Which is again, crap.
You injected the 'rosy scenario' in the face of clear statements to the contrary. Paraphrasing is only useful when it is a restatement at least mildly true to the original words. The only thing your efforts show is that you are still incapable of civil or productive discourse. You are so intent on denegrating those who disagree with you that your knowledge is all but obscured by the crap.
thebionicman, post: 424055, member: 8136 wrote: Which is again, crap.
You injected the 'rosy scenario' in the face of clear statements to the contrary. Paraphrasing is only useful when it is a restatement at least mildly true to the original words. The only thing your efforts show is that you are still incapable of civil or productive discourse. You are so intent on denegrating those who disagree with you that your knowledge is all but obscured by the crap.
So, your least-cost scenario can't be fairly described as "optimistic" or "rosy"? If you want to consider the scenario in which other possible problems are not present to be pessimistic, I don't think that many people would agree with you. Clearly, it's on the best case end of things, which is practically the definition of optimism and a "rosy" outlook.
What you describe is how how a remodelling contractor might price things, i.e. "if there is no dry rot, it'll be XXX, but if we have to replace wood, it'll be more and I can't say until we know what has to be done (after we've torn your house apart, of course)". The XXX price is the optimistic or rosy estimate that got the job, with the trap door for contingencies.
Kent McMillan, post: 424063, member: 3 wrote: So, your least-cost scenario can't be fairly described as "optimistic" or "rosy"? If you want to consider the scenario in which other possible problems are not present to be pessimistic, I don't think that many people would agree with you. Clearly, it's on the best case end of things, which is practically the definition of optimism and a "rosy" outlook.
What you describe is how how a remodelling contractor might price things, i.e. "if there is no dry rot, it'll be XXX, but if we have to replace wood, it'll be more and I can't say until we know what has to be done (after we've torn your house apart, of course)". The XXX price is the optimistic or rosy estimate that got the job, with the trap door for contingencies.
Actually it's more like, my experience and initial research tells me in all likelihood you have rot behind these 2 walls. Giving you a price that does not account for that would be misleading. Therefore my price is x. If on the off chance the rot has compromised the structural integrity of the house we will obviously need to talk about additional services. Not a small difference.
Getting back to surveying, a little research and thought will reveal the things that most estimates dont include. It will also tell you the value of your product. Price accordingly. That way you dont tear off the wallboard to reveal what you should have known and you dont get stuck trying to wiggle out of losing money. The client goes into the project eyes open and finishes happy.
If the only thing a person looks at is the initial number they will pick someone else. I am more than OK with that.
thebionicman, post: 424124, member: 8136 wrote: Getting back to surveying, a little research and thought will reveal the things that most estimates dont include.
While that may be true within the confines of PLSSia, That would not be true in most of Texas familiar to me. What a little research will typically disclose is nearly nothing of value aside from the fact that more research needs to be done, which is so commonly true that it isn't surprising. This even includes some brand new subdivisions where the surveyor overlooked some relevant issues in determining the boundary of the tract subdivided or with the underlying land grants.
However, whether it is a day's worth of research or a month's worth is something that can only be determined by doing more research. So one can invest a substantial amount of time in developing a cost estimate and to add it to the overhead when the client says "let me get back to you on that."
Kent McMillan, post: 424150, member: 3 wrote: While that may be true within the confines of PLSSia, That would not be true in most of Texas familiar to me. What a little research will typically disclose is nearly nothing of value aside from the fact that more research needs to be done, which is so commonly true that it isn't surprising. This even includes some brand new subdivisions where the surveyor overlooked some relevant issues in determining the boundary of the tract subdivided or with the underlying land grants.
However, whether it is a day's worth of research or a month's worth is something that can only be determined by doing more research. So one can invest a substantial amount of time in developing a cost estimate and to add it to the overhead when the client says "let me get back to you on that."
I'm jealous. I would love to work somewhere with clients that have no earthly idea how much something is going to cost or how long it will take until you're finished.
Kent McMillan, post: 424150, member: 3 wrote: While that may be true within the confines of PLSSia, That would not be true in most of Texas familiar to me. What a little research will typically disclose is nearly nothing of value aside from the fact that more research needs to be done, which is so commonly true that it isn't surprising. This even includes some brand new subdivisions where the surveyor overlooked some relevant issues in determining the boundary of the tract subdivided or with the underlying land grants.
However, whether it is a day's worth of research or a month's worth is something that can only be determined by doing more research. So one can invest a substantial amount of time in developing a cost estimate and to add it to the overhead when the client says "let me get back to you on that."
Im proud of you. Thats a record for how long it took to make it a PLSS issue.
thebionicman, post: 424206, member: 8136 wrote: Im proud of you. Thats a record for how long it took to make it a PLSS issue.
We here in Oklahoma should award Kent a license merely on his vast and exhaustive knowledge of our PLSS system. 😉
paden cash, post: 424180, member: 20 wrote: I'm jealous. I would love to work somewhere with clients that have no earthly idea how much something is going to cost or how long it will take until you're finished.
The most ethical way to proceed is to give an estimate for the cost of doing the research in order to be able to estimate the level of effort that the field work will require. If a client is scared off by paying a thousand for research, chances are they won't be able to afford a survey and will end up paying one of the fixed-price train wreck firms to come make an even bigger mess than exists.
