NCEES FS Exam....um,huh?

I think that the FS test is geared toward certifying that an individual has the knowledge and experience to pursue a career in Professional Land Surveying and the categories that they test on all fall in areas that are applicable to operating as a professional. The grammar, computer, written and verbal communications, planning, etc., are all areas that I would expect an LSIT to be strong in. They could be a whiz at calculating but when I'm cc'd on an email to the client titled 'Hear is your Servey,' I would be a little peeved...and it probably wouldnt go through because it's 50MB and my new LSIT can't figure out why it won't send.

I'm just saying that all those things they test on contribute to delivering a professional product to your clients. That's what I think, anyway. I'm sure others have a different opinion.

When I took the FS they provided an outline of what kinds of questions would be asked on the test. Do they not do that anymore?

Don't expect to do a lot of calculating on the PS either...

I can't help but notice there is a huge gulf between the calculating tools a surveyor uses professionally and what one is allowed to bring in to the test room (I have not taken it, I'm just going by what I've read in passing). So the calculator might be something simple like a $15 Texas Instruments, or maybe with computer based testing, you'll only be able to use one made available on the computer. Meanwhile real surveyors are using CAD packages that do least squares adjustment. Perhaps the test creators feel asking test takers to learn antiquated methods like the compass rule just for the test is unreasonable?

The FS exam is developed to test the skills and theory learned in the course of a candidate's undergraduate studies. That is the foundation upon which to build your professional skills.

GIS speaks for itself. Computer programming comes in handy when you are building your own GPS editing tools, least squares adjustment software or just a template in Microsoft Word that will pull information from an Excel spreadsheet and pictures from a folder to make a good looking report. It all fits in somewhere and you will realize it the longer you are in the profession. I ran a level loop not long ago where the only way to get an elevation from the benchmark on top of the dam down onto the alignment pins was using an inverted rod.

You will be tested on the other skills you mentioned later on in the PS and state-specific exams.

>antiquated methods

Antiquated methods are important for two reasons. First, if you are retracing you need to know how your predecessor was likely to have done things.

Secondly, in many (not all) cases, the old method teaches you more about what the new do-all computer program is doing for you or why it is doing it.

Ashton, Should You Be Automatically Approved Per Software?

It is a test of what you know not what you own.

In any case the test is being completely changed and the FS and FE will be computer based, but you do not get to bring your own computer.

As a note for Fall 2011, the first time pass rate in the FE for Civil candiates was 79%. For the FS the first time pass rate was 63%. Almost all FE candidates had a degree which is not true for the FS.

Paul in PA

> You will be tested on the other skills you mentioned later on in the PS and state-specific exams.

And then you're only tested (at least for the PS) to the level of being "minimally competent" 😉

The Principle Exam was much easier than the Fundamental, although the State Exams can be the most difficult.

> The Principle Exam was much easier than the Fundamental, although the State Exams can be the most difficult.

I was on the NCEES committee to set the cut score for the PS back in December of 2006 (they should do it again this December). If the Principles exam was easy, it ain't my fault - I didn't make a lot of friends in that room. 😉

Ashton, Should You Be Automatically Approved Per Software?

If I were designing a modern question, I would, perhaps, present a report from a least squares adjustment (giving quantities that all the popular software reports), state the precision required in a certain jurisdiction, and ask if the traverse meets the statutory precision requirement. I'm not saying antiquated techniques are never useful in practice, but would hope inclusion of them would be based on the value compared to the value of other possible exam subject matter, not because it fits better into the test format than more valuable calculations.

Yes they did, however it seemed like a last minute rewrite, or perhaps they stood out more. Either way it was nothing like the NCEES test prep book!

I goofed on that comment, I meant to say that that was their way of making it difficult (the inverted rod). As for the making your own GPS tools etc, how often would you say most people do that?

After all the practice it was just a little bit of a letdown of sorts. I had worked on end area, compass adjustments, photogrammetry, all sorts of goofy curves only to be asked questions like:

Survey A sets a pimn with x,y coordinates, later surveyor B comes along with similar equipment and discovers error, oh nos wat do?!?!?

So I picked the obvious one of bump the pin! (just kidding!)

> ...As for the making your own GPS tools etc, how often would you say most people do that?

More often than you may realize. We have been working on ours for the last couple of years. It is constantly being updated as it is a work in progress but it is extremely useful. There are several guys on this board that develop their own tools for various uses.

Are you talking about the exam to "certify" someone as a Level I, II or III survey tech?
I stumbled upon some sample tests one day and took all 3 and passed all 3 that afternoon. I had only been surveying for about a few months.

I know what you're referring to and this is different.

> I goofed on that comment, I meant to say that that was their way of making it difficult (the inverted rod). As for the making your own GPS tools etc, how often would you say most people do that?
>
> After all the practice it was just a little bit of a letdown of sorts. I had worked on end area, compass adjustments, photogrammetry, all sorts of goofy curves only to be asked questions like:
>
> Survey A sets a pimn with x,y coordinates, later surveyor B comes along with similar equipment and discovers error, oh nos wat do?!?!?
>
> So I picked the obvious one of bump the pin! (just kidding!)

Getting a little cocky there aren't we. The exam questions are rotated, so it's important that you study all that stuff. NCEES has a huge pool of questions and depending on when you sit they can be totally different and depending on your level of knowledge it be anywhere from difficult to easy.

Ralph

Ralph

Ashton, Should You Be Automatically Approved Per Software?

> If I were designing a modern question, I would, perhaps, present a report from a least squares adjustment (giving quantities that all the popular software reports), state the precision required in a certain jurisdiction, and ask if the traverse meets the statutory precision requirement. I'm not saying antiquated techniques are never useful in practice, but would hope inclusion of them would be based on the value compared to the value of other possible exam subject matter, not because it fits better into the test format than more valuable calculations.

Hopefully there is more to being a "modern" professional land surveyor than reading comprehension.

I gotta toot my own horn or someone else will spit in it!

I didn't say easy, but easier. lol. The FE Exam asked a lot of GIS, Photogrametry, Grammar, Quadratics, etc. Basically questions that rarely came up in my work day. The Principles was more survey related to my day to day experience.