SURVEY ENGINEERING CURRICULUM
Look for an updated/modified SURVEY ENGINEERING curriculum from my ASCE GMD Education Committee within the next year or so!
It's time to move ahead; most of the suggestions listed above have already failed or the associated programs are limping along (exceptions: Cal Poly and Oregon State).
DA Wahlstrom JD MS FASCE
UH Professor Emeritus
Recipient 2011 ASCE Surveying and Mapping Award
Ralph, Happy new year to you as well! I'm a bit socially challenged as you might have noticed (especially on the keyboard).
I agree with what you say in your post. Some things are better learned and can only be learned by experience. And surveyors should be adding value by being the best and expert measurers.
Would I be correct in saying that you would like to see more time spent on the "control surveying" mentioned in the program outline? Are there any specific things we could teach in a college environment that would help to prepare them for what you need to teach them?
Sometimes I wonder if the specific courses or material even matter. If we can turn out a graduate who is more mature than when they came in, who has struggled to solve problems, who has gained some insight into the overall picture of what a certain occupation has as its fundamental goals. Hopefully then, this is a person who will be able to figure out what an employer is trying to teach them in much shorter order than someone else. And hopefully that will make money for the employer. But we can't replicate working on real projects for 60 hours a week. Unfortunately, I think some that work 60 hours a week on projects, with no college background, never really understand what's going on, and hence many mistakes are made. But there will always be exceptions to that for strong self study such as you and I and many others.
Duane
SURVEY ENGINEERING CURRICULUM
Hey Dave,
when am I going to get my FASCE?
Ralph
SURVEY ENGINEERING CURRICULUM
Hi DAW,
Give us a hint. What direction do the engineers think we should move in? Are we to be their support personell only, or is there a professional role with shared competencies?
What is it that has been tried and failed?
The engineering societies support surveyors having a corner on the GPS/GIS market. That is never going to happen. Surveyors still control the very precise measureing market, but the market share surveyors lost to ease of less precise measurement by GPS, and analysis of those by GIS mapping, is never coming back.
What of real value is it that the local professional surveyor is going to be able to provide to the general public in their community?
Duane
I agree with what you say in your post. Some things are better learned and can only be learned by experience. And surveyors should be adding value by being the best and expert measurers.
I believe this is more of an education issue than it is an experience issue. I've heard guys say that they have 40 years experience when in fact they have 1 years experience 40 times over. I've been fortunate to have worked under very good Surveyors, others haven't. One of the criticisms I've heard over the course of my career is that I don't stay at one place for too long. Looking back at it, I wouldn't have it any other way. I worked with some of the best and some of the worst, more importantly I took something from every experience, even if it was how not to do it. The experience route is always going to be a crap-shoot. I could've worked under JB Stahl or Kent or Others (like yourself) on this board I probably would've been better sooner.
Would I be correct in saying that you would like to see more time spent on the "control surveying" mentioned in the program outline? Are there any specific things we could teach in a college environment that would help to prepare them for what you need to teach them?
Not really, I believe it should be more well rounded and encompass more of the technical sciences that would give a graduate the ability to learn some of the more intricate aspects of procedures. I believe that by having a better understanding of the "why" the "how" becomes easier.
Being inexorably tied to boundary determination leaves you at the mercy of a cyclical real estate market. It becomes feast or Famine.
I just read the cover story of POB and the focus was on industrial surveying in the rust belt, the company reinvented itself in light of the poor outlook for boundary work. The guy was a Ferris State Grad, I would venture to say that his educational background gave him the ability to pursue this type of work and execute it competently.
When I went to take my Surveyors Examination, I noticed that there was some construction going on, a building was being erected on the campus where the test was being administered. I saw a guy wearing a tool belt with a plumb bob and a steel tape attached, he was also dragging a cart full of books. I approached him figuring he was a Union member. When I introduced myself he said he wasn't working on the site, he was there to take the test. The guy was from Eastern Europe and he was of the impression that there was a practical portion of the test ie "hands on measuring."
I thought to myself, "What a novel concept". I then realized that you could become a Licensee without ever having spent anytime in the field.
The point of my diatribe is that, I believe that Surveyors should be well rounded and teachable. How the academic community addresses it is beyond my area of expertise.
Ralph
SURVEY ENGINEERING CURRICULUM
I personally believe that LAND SURVEYING is such a small sized specialized profession that entry should be at the post graduate level (masters maybe two extra years). You would get a BS degree in a more diverse field and meet a list of prerequisites and then apply to a specialized program. Then you could be licensed to do land boundary surveying and all that goes along with that. Then these professionals would be land surveyors and all the other work associated with all kinds of measuring could be done by others with their own specialized skills and licenses. Look at all the specialties in the medical area that require post graduate education in a small sized area.
It's time to leave behind the Jack of all trades, master of none way of doing things.
SURVEY ENGINEERING CURRICULUM
I ask the question a different way...
With Land Surveying dying a slow death, who will the public rely on to help maintain their boundaries?
SURVEY ENGINEERING CURRICULUM
It would take a sea change on the part of public attitudes to support that economically. Where is the business model that will support highly trained boundary professionals? First the average boundary client would have to be convinced that they need an expensive product and second they would have to have the means and willingness to pay for it.
Obviously there is some support but boundary experts are few; they are out there but, for example, I doubt the Utah economy would support 2000 J.B. Stahls.
SURVEY ENGINEERING CURRICULUM
> It would take a sea change on the part of public attitudes to support that economically. Where is the business model that will support highly trained boundary professionals? First the average boundary client would have to be convinced that they need an expensive product and second they would have to have the means and willingness to pay for it.
>
> Obviously there is some support but boundary experts are few; they are out there but, for example, I doubt the Utah economy would support 2000 J.B. Stahls.
Excellent point, but the bigger question is how did it get to this point?
The Feast or Famine mentality, that leads Some Professionals to throw others under the bus, accusing them of drive-byes and lowballing, technician etc. We all know there are some hacks out there that will pimp themselves out and we also know there are people that will get in over their heads. At the same time there are those who are more efficient and can go in lower and still realize a hefty profit (does that mean they have to go in substantially lower?). When the Professional Surveyor doesn't realize the value of his/her's product, how can the public as a whole???
It shouldn't matter how much it costs the professional to do the job, professional service is professional service and you should be well paid for your time.
It reminds me of the guy on the other forum who was licensed and had a degree and would work for $100 an hour solo. Would I come that far in life to become a pack mule?? Not no, but Hell NO! More importantly what's the perception?? If you're putting out a competitive quality/product working solo, should you charge substantially less than someone with much more overhead???
I'm re-reading this and I'm not sure it makes sense, but I'll post it anyway.
The point is, there is no reason that the economy couldn't support every Surveyor being a JB.
Ralph
SURVEY ENGINEERING CURRICULUM
Ralph-
It makes perfect sense.
We have to do public education but first public marketing. The Realtors didn't get where they are by accident. We should've started this 50 years ago but can't help that now.
First we have to agree among ourselves exactly what the Surveying Profession is.
-Dave
SURVEY ENGINEERING CURRICULUM
I don't think Utah would need more than 100, maybe 200. Only about 15% of the state is private land. Most of the surveying going on is related to construction not boundary. If you want to regulate and license this work that's fine with me. Some of it is very specialized and they get paid well because of what they can do, not because they have a license.
The business model I don't see as a problem. Say you need a radiologist. Are you given the low cost licensed incapable option. What about an attorney, can you get the $50 per hour version. Geez even electricians and plumbers get more per hour than land surveyors, no BS degree required.
And lets face it, much of this low cost "survey" work on boundaries is worth less than zero.
So why have a license at all if the person is not going to be real expert at what they do and worth something. Maybe the final solution is just to do away with regulation of boundary work. That's seems to be what most folks want anyway. People in the know would find capable surveyors to help them solve their problems. The rest would just do what they been doing, finding something cheap and of little value. To get value for your work you need to produce something valuable.
I know these statements don't make me popular around here, but reality isn't popular these days.
I don't do all that much survey work these days. To get the work I'd have to work for almost nothing. So the other guys can go for it, good luck in the long run, you can only lose money for so long. That business model won't work either.
SURVEY ENGINEERING CURRICULUM
All of the work I do is for the property owner which is the Government agency I work for. It works well for me.
One project I am working on we don't own the property yet but ultimately will be acquiring portions of it.
I gave up trying to serve private clients because their knowledge is not only severely deficient it is severely wrong in most cases. They have a clue but it's the wrong clue. Most people have some idea of what a doctor or dentist does but Land Surveying is this mysterious profession where land surveyors somehow magically know where to put the monument.
What I hate: AutoCAD and Special Problems in Civil Drafting classes. These cover technical skills training that have no place (IMHO) in a bachelors degree program
What I like: The requirements for Business Law, Contract Law and Survey Practice classes. For a profession to thrive, the practitioners have to be trained to be successful in the business of the profession.
What I really like: Senior Geomatics Project.
What I would love: If the Senior Geomatics Project was expanded to a multi-class senior thesis. These were once part and parcel of a decent degree program but have, for the most part, fallen by the wayside except for in the occasional Honors College Program (Shameless alumni plug, don't get me started on my thesis subject 😉 )
> So what do you think, would you send your kid to this program if he/she wanted to go into surveying?
Program looks very comprehensive on surveying / geomatics...little light on math maybe. I would not have problem sending anyone to this program for surveying - but I'd probably try like hell to talk them into something more lucrative / sustainable to pursue in college.
I Agree, Do Away With AutoCAD Drafting
They should be taught hand drafting. 😉
I take it some people do not understand that CAD is a part of almost any engineering program. Usually it is a Freshman levl course along with English, etc.
In a few years based on current elementary and secondary education a Surveying program may have to include a cursive reading and writing program so that future surveyors can read and understand scriven record documents.
Because of lax primary education programs some surveying courses now include Basic Geometry.
Paul in PA
