Activity Feed › Discussion Forums › Strictly Surveying › Where are all the up and comers?
Money is the key to end all your woes. Your ups, your downs, your highs and your lows….It’s like that, and that’s the way it is.
Run DMC said it best.
If we want good staff we have to pay them their worth compared to other options they have. Otherwise, we will work our way out of a profession. The good news is that it is happening in at least some areas right now. If we do hit a bad recession or downturn then we will lose any progress from this brief spell.
—Dan MacIsaac, PLSMy 2 cents: we cannot attract new people into that profession that:
- constantly complains about the lack or work ethic of younger people
- fails to present a professional appearance at every opportunity in the public’s eye
- competes to charge lower rates than the other ‘guy’ to get work
- requires formal education for licensure, when QUALITY educational programs are few and far between
- does a lousy job of reminding people of what we do and the importance of our work
- allows our work to be done by others that should be done by licensed surveyors
- in many states, does not allow the opportunity for that individual who has worked hard, learned our profession and study hard to obtain a license unless they paid some institute of higher education for a piece of paper to hang on their wall
- fails to police its own ranks adequately by calling out those that do substandard work or operate their businesses in an unprofessional manner
What we need to do focus on showing everyone we are professionals, deserve to be respected and paid well for the valuable service we provide. Quit complaining about what isn’t right and start fixing some of those things.
Anyway, just my thoughts and yes I know in my brief post, I likely did at least 1 or 2 of the items I listed above.
- Posted by: @williwaw
I can??t help but think that with the push for efficiency over last decade, with robotic totalstations and GNSS, the profession has effectively eaten all but the fittest and most committed young up and comers.
I’m not sure this is the case. I think if it were true we wouldn’t be looking for people so often because we would have a small but ultra-skilled workforce able to handle current demand, and very highly paid.
But I think we’ve painted ourselves into a corner by being unwilling to pay based upon talents and skill set, and being way more focused on licensure and seniority.
There’s currently a big push at my employer to train more PMs and do more “strategic hires”. Even as they acknowledge what we really need are highly skilled and technically competent project surveyors and SITs. You know, the ones that solve the problems and get the work done.
I’ve heard the argument that techs should never make more than a license, and it’s frankly not convincing. Unless that individual is bringing in a lot more profit simply by being licensed – which can happen, but is very hard to quantify – give the guy with more skill and talent higher pay.
There are a ton of skill sets and sub-disciplines within geomatics, but we seem to be hell-bent on taking someone who has barely scratched the surface of a few of them, pushing licensure on them, and then shoving them behind a desk to “manage” projects. While also telling them that because they are licensed they automatically know better than folks who are not.
It also seems that we gain licensees mainly because folks need/want a good pay bump, not necessarily because there’s nothing left for them to do except get licensed.
I’d rather keep upping the pay as folks gain more skills and bring value to the firm, whether or not they get licensed. If that means they surpass a licensee in pay, that’s fine by me.
It also forces the licensees to not rest on their laurels after getting that stamp. I know way too many people that turned their brains off after passing that exam.
“…people will come to love their oppression, to adore the technologies that undo their capacities to think.” -Neil Postman The first time I was on a crew, I was 15 years old working a summer job. I was the fifth man on the crew. The first few weeks I tied a lot of flagging, sharpened machetes, cut line, carried buckets, filled water coolers, and stocked and cleaned out trucks. I also got the opportunity to watch and learn. That was an advantage for me to be able to slowly learn what I could do to help out.
I learned from every person on that crew. I haven’t seen any of them in probably 40 years, but I remember all their names, save the tail chain man.
I can only imagine how difficult it must be to have to hop in cold on day one and having to produce, because you can’t have slack on a two person crew.
- Posted by: @blitzkriegbob
you can’t have slack on a two person crew.
It’s even worse on a one-person crew. I have no opportunity to sit back and watch the other guy work, because there isn’t one.
(On the other hand, I don’t have to argue with him about when and where we’re going to have lunch.)
A second set of eyes, ears, etc. can be incredibly helpful. I tend to get so lost in my own vision sometimes that I cannot see the obvious (and much easier) solution. Then I hear, “How about this?” Witnessing the process in action assists the learner. Talking about it is not nearly so educational.
I’d work for and with you anytime. Perspective like this is where I’ve been, and long to be. Almost no one can manifest this belief, and even fewer are comfortable even mentioning it.
The people you discuss that are under your mentoring have no idea just how lucky they are to be there.
And you’ve been mentored by similar as evidence of the perspective you have been able to develop and foster.
Kudos.
- Posted by: @blitzkriegbob
I can only imagine how difficult it must be to have to hop in cold on day one and having to produce, because you can’t have slack on a two person crew.
Did that for three weeks at a level I had no business being pushed into, by people that could only condemn and criticize me on my lack of production all the while not even getting me set up with the permissions to access the system and even knowing where to even find things.
I learned even in that environment, and took the lessons forward.
- Posted by: @7_foot_foresight
I believe that the initial hurdle that surveying has in the career choice world of the younger generation is that it is not only a ‘hard work’ physically demanding profession, but it’s also complex mental work at the same time; the dual combination takes a special type of individual to want to spend their working days using their mind and body to its fullest extent. There’s plenty of candidates out job searching for the path of least resistance with their labor, and I only hope those that want to go against that grain knock on my door with a resume. Hope you find what you are looking for soon…
I think your assessment is spot on. It’s definitely not for everyone and does require somebody that thrives on being challenged and has the right attitude and aptitude. One of the things I’ve learned to look for in people is a certain fearlessness to ask questions and being willing to admit that they don’t know something, without feeling like they’d lose face and a drive to learn, curiosity in a word. I worked on a survey crew at 15 as a helper and went on to do every other job under the sun, but was drawn back by the freedom of always going new places and facing fresh problems, getting out of my comfort zone. That’s what I thrive on. It’s a big investment training someone in just the basics and I have to feel like the odds are stacked in favor of it being a success, for everyone. Feels like I’m swimming against the current.
Willy - Posted by: @williwaw
a certain fearlessness to ask questions and being willing to admit that they don’t know something, without feeling like they’d lose face and a drive to learn, curiosity in a word
…I am this ’10 yearold’.
My late mentor that fostered this attitude in me and anyone he was teaching was a tremendous leap forward.
Dave imbued, hell, insisted we ask questions and get comfortable knowing what we didn’t know. It is the only way you can go through the crucible of real learning and builds to a point of endless curiosity and joy in discovery of unknown and challenging things.
Damn I love this friggin site!!
Hey, guys. Listen up. This is precisely why Wendell pays us to be here. It’s our JOB to provide education and leadership to those who need it. This is a wonderful system. And, the checks come in real handy every month.
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@wendell
??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???
We haven’t been able to find any young up and comers through the standard job posting sites so we changed things up and just tried word of mouth internally to all. As a result, i currently have 2 up and comers, 1 is 3 years into their career with aspirations of achieving a PLS and the other will be graduating college with an immediate job here (currently an intern over the summer).
- Posted by: @holy-cow
Hey, guys. Listen up. This is precisely why Wendell pays us to be here. It’s our JOB to provide education and leadership to those who need it. This is a wonderful system. And, the checks come in real handy every month.
I think you might have that backward. LOL ????
Your friendly, virtual neighborhood Webmaster So many good points have already been made in this post.
There are potential surveyors and survey techs out there. As has been mentioned, it is just difficult to draw people into a profession when they don’t even know anything about it (sometimes that it even exists at all).
When the old guy in the neighborhood comes out and starts telling you about how he used to be a surveyor back in the summer of 1925 holding the stick, ask if he has a kid, grand kid, great-grand kid, great-great-grand kid etc…who would like to get into surveying. Seriously – how many opportunities do we pass up on telling the general public about the great profession we’re in when we have the opportunity? Anyone could be the lead to a new talented employee.
If your state organizations are not already doing so, think about going to career days to let young people know about surveying as an option. There have been several Kentucky Assoc. members who have advocated for and done this (Jason Graves was very instrumental in getting this started for us). Here is an initiative from New York State Association of Land Surveyors from several years ago – https://www.nsps.us.com/resource/resmgr/2020_awards_/pr_campaign_-_get_kids_into_.pdf I. remember it being discussed on the board, but I haven’t really seen anything further after the initial development.
If your state requires a degree, make sure that the faculty teaching in those programs are connecting with high schools (especially some of the tech type high schools that have been coming back into vogue). From experience – those kids are sharp and there will be several interested in pursuing surveying.
- Posted by: @jon-payne
We just need one the creative folks on the website to move to Hollywood and get a TV sit-com about a surveyor produced.
Ward Cleaver was said to be an “Engineer”, but I very much suspect that he was, in fact, a surveyor. There is at least one episode where he shows Theodore his old transit.
@jon-payne
Yeah, I heard that Al Bundy was originally going to be a land surveyor.
But, they didn’t want to make him that low on the social order, so they raised him up to shoe salesman
@rover83 when a young person can have no work experience and start out at a gas station or Target in a nice air condition or heated environment making more than a seasoned crew chief or cad tech . This makes attracting the younger generation even tougher. Because when they have to fight tics briars hills swamps and dodge cars for a lot less money even more difficult. We are in trying times. I see some young people get excited like a new car smell excited seeing all the cool technology we now have. Robots, drones, GPS etc. pretty colors on the computer screen. But thats just it its a shiny object and the new car smell eventually fades. What keeps me coming back to surveying and I do love technology. But what keeps me coming back is the History, the science, and seeing what those that came before us accomplished with mere basic equipment compared to today??s. The mentoring that a person put into his personal to teach and train and educate. I see less and less of that today vs when I first started. I interviewed today and well the bottom line all they wanted was a tool. There words a body to gather data. I said thank you but I am not a good fit. The manager said i can pay you X. I said its not the money. The owner called me asked how it went. I was honest. He said somewhere he had lost the ability to attract those with a teacher??s heart and now he is paying dearly. We must get the profession back to basic leadership and not just good management somehow. There are a lot of natural leaders on this forum. You can tell by their passion and desire to help total strangers for the profession and its just in them. I have faith that they will rise to the top and draw some of the best to the profession. I just hope its soon.
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