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CMS CAD is one of the cheaper versions of IntelliCAD. It uses the same CAD engine as Carlson Survey, MicroSurvey, etc. The USB option would allow you to jump workstations if that matters. I’m not affiliated with them, but IntelliCAD is one of the better CAD packages you can own rather than rent/lease.
Take a look at https://traverse-pc.com/
It is realtively inexpensive, awesome tech support and reads and writes DWG files if you need to.
I am considering an online bachelors now if it exists. 100% online.
i have an associates, so it would shave some time off.
Im in California and do plan to become licensed here,
but I want to move back to my home state of Michigan. I want to become licensed there and they require a bachelors.
I wrote the board and asked them in having a Cal LS negates the need for a bachelors to sit for the Michigan PS, and it’s a no go.
Thats too bad. Now I have to find a way to cover the cost of a degree.
@native1 I’ve heard good things about this one: https://online.umaine.edu/svt/
The new rules for MI PS licensing came out this morning at 8:45am (EST):
https://ars.apps.lara.state.mi.us/Transaction/RFRTransaction?TransactionID=1386
It looks like the baccalaureate degree requirement is still in place, but it appears there are updates too.
I don’t know your particular degree situation, but maybe finishing something with a BA/BS and the NCEES route is a workable path:
PART 2. EDUCATION, EXPERIENCE, AND EXAMINATIONS
R 339.17201 Educational requirements.
Rule 201.
An applicant for licensure shall provide proof, as directed by the department, verifying 1 of the following to satisfy the educational requirements under the code:
(b) A NCEES credentials evaluation that verifies the applicant received a baccalaureate degree or higher and satisfies the NCEES surveying core program requirements found in the NCEES Surveying Education Standard.
R 339.17202 Professional surveying experience; verification; educational credit for experience.
Rule 202.
(1) Under section 2004(3)(a) of the code, MCL 339.2004, an applicant shall document not less than 8 years of professional experience in professional surveying, including not more than 5 years of education. An applicant shall satisfy the requirements of this rule to receive credit for professional experience.
(2) Professional surveying work that is performed while under the supervision of a professional surveyor licensed in this state or licensed or registered in another state or a province of Canada and involves work in 1 or more of the following areas qualifies as professional experience: (list omitted)
(3) An applicant for licensure shall provide proof, as directed by the department, verifying 1 of the following to receive credit for professional experience in surveying work:
(a) Except as otherwise provided under subrules (1) and (4) of this rule, the applicant has obtained not less than 4 years of experience practicing as a licensed or registered professional surveyor in another state or a province of Canada.
(b) All of the following: (list omitted)
(4) The department shall grant not more than 5 years of professional experience credit to an applicant holding a degree that satisfies the requirements under R 339.17201. Credit is limited to the following amounts:
(a) Not more than 4 years of professional experience for a baccalaureate degree. Experience is granted for only 1 baccalaureate degree.
(b) Not more than 1 year of professional experience for a post-baccalaureate degree. Experience is granted for only 1 post-baccalaureate degree.
thanks for the update
i only have an Associate of Science from Delta College
It looks like I still need a bachelors degree.
Im not exactly familiar with the previous standards – but I’ll have to sort this out to make the correct decision.
Too bad they didn’t lessen the education requirements. Not to water it down by any means. But hey, if you can pass the test then what’s the issue?
Just bummed about re-entering college and complaining.
Thanks for letting me know about the rule updates. I literally just got an email yesterday saying a Cal LS doesn’t change any Michigan requirements to sit for their PS exam
Hold on there, speedy…
Those are the “rules”, but as far as I know, the rules cannot conflict with the law and be more restrictve where the law is clear.
The Occupational Code of Michigan (“the law”) has been open many times to “fix”, and each time the topic of “degree requirement” has come up. The engineers and the architects “fixed” their respective degree requirements, but the language for survey licensing has not changed to reflect a 4 year degree requirement.
This is what the law says:
https://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(bomucs5510og1a55nlkbgl55))/documents/mcl/pdf/mcl-299-1980-20.pdf
(excerpt):
(3) In order to be licensed as a professional surveyor, an individual must meet all of the following:
(a) Provide documentation of at least 8 years of professional experience in professional surveying satisfactory to the board of professional surveyors, including not more than 5 years of education.
(b) Provide evidence of completion of a degree in professional surveying or a related degree that included professional surveying courses acceptable to the board of professional surveyors.
(c) Pass the professional surveying fundamentals and professional practice examinations or provide equivalent proof of qualification to practice professional surveying acceptable to the department and the board.
(d) Be of good moral character.
I don’t see anywhere in “the law” where it says you must have a Bachelor’s Degree for surveying.
In fact, it appears that the law for survey licensure explicitly leaves out any specifics with respect to a 2 year degree, 4 year degree, BA, BS, etc.
Why?
Well, where do you get a degree in professional surveying?
There is no such thing that I am aware of.
And even if there was, what does a degree in professional surveying mean? 2 year degree? 4 year degree? I don’t know.
I seem to recall the State of Michigan, and their Licensing Board having promulgated rules that exceeded their authority and scope of rule making in the past. That’s why they open up the rules and the law to “fix” it so often.
Where as it says the following for architects: (a) Provide evidence of completion of a first professional degree or further degree in architecture satisfactory to the board of architects.
“First professional degrees” can be undergraduate or graduate, and may be classified as bachelor’s, master’s, or doctoral degrees.
And it says the following for engineers: (b) Provide evidence of completion of a baccalaureate degree in engineering from an accredited program or its equivalent, as determined by the board of professional engineers.
“Baccalaureate degree” means exactly that.
The law appears to be on your side. Use it.
The Board, the Department, and the Rules are trying not to admit they may be wrong. Happens all the time. If you ever attend a State Licensing Board meeting, I think you’ll change your mind about just how smart those folks really are.
…. or its equivalent, as determined by the board of professional engineers.
That is a mighty big loophole. This wording leaves open the option for the board to accept life experience (or just warm, friendly feelings) as the equivalent of a degree.
So that is interesting, because I just emailed them a few days ago about this. If holding an LS in a diff state would allow me to bypass their educational requirements. I figured the answer is “no”, but why not ask?
This is what they replied with:
”
Hi Joshua,
The State of Michigan does not preapprove for NCEES exam. You’ll need to contact NCEES (800-250-3196) to ask if they will allow you to take the PS exam without holding a bachelor’s degree.
To obtain a MI PS license, you will be required to provide proof of completing an ABET accredited surveying degree at the bachelor level or higher; this is no waiver of this requirement.
NOTE: your CA license status has nothing to do with the MI license requirements or your exam eligibility.”
so I am quite confused. I am not at all saying having a bachelors in an ABET survey-related degree to be able to sit for the Michigan PS exam is a bad thing.
I’m just figuring out life choices, and the sooner I can clear this up the sooner and more exciting my life becomes as I work toward becoming licensed here, in California, and moving hopefully in the next few years back to Michigan, becoming licensed there and carving out a life for my family.
@norman-oklahoma
Fortunately, that excerpt is for the engineers.
That language was initially presented as the “standard” across the disciplines (A, E, S) for exactly the reason you suggest. Which does give wide latitude to the Department and the Board to promulgate almost any rule(s) they want, as things change. (The legislature was tired of continuously rewriting/amending the statute(s) every year or two, or X.)
It was intended to be applied similarly to the Architects and the Surveyors, but it did not make it.
In MI, the State, the Department(s), and the Licensing Board(s) (Occupations) are rooted in statute(s) that are old, outdated, and clunky to administer. Our licensing boards have little to no power. They serve in an “advisory capacity” only. It’s quite a farcical relationship.
Apparently other states are administered by basic law, and then the Board(s) govern by rule(s), and it is much more efficient, better laid out, and easier to administer?
Well, I suggest you change your approach from, how do I “…bypass educational requirements”, to “I have attained the minimum requirements by law to be elligible for MI survey licensing” and make that case clearly and concisely.
Also, there may be very few (maybe zero) jurisdictions that allow pure reciprocity/comity for different jurisdictional survey licensing. Knowing the laws for each respective jurisdiction is a key factor for licensing, just like the conversation now about MI.
There used to be a sequence to follow for MI PS licensing, but I think you should be able to take any of the NCEES exams at any time, and I think the State portion will be restricted now.
To obtain a MI PS license, you will be required to provide proof of completing an ABET accredited surveying degree at the bachelor level or higher; this is no waiver of this requirement.
I’ve presented you both the law and the rules, as put forth by this state. The state is “toeing the company line”. They will always do this, even if they happen to be incorrect.
Plus, you have to understand that they have lots of “first line” people to deal with “customer service”.
If you do what everyone else does, you will get the same or similar results as everyone else.
If you take the unorthodox route, you need to be willing to do things that everyone else does not do. Then you will get different/unorthodox results.
I understand some of what you’re saying..
I’m green with this process.
I am the type to just “try it – see what happens” There’s rules in place, but there are also exceptions to them when a human is in charge.
So I’ll have to study up on what you posted for me and maybe make a phone call instead of email.
Trying to set myself up for a few years ahead of now. Don’t want to waste time not getting the bachelors if that’s just what’s needed for MI Ps exam in the end.
Also don’t want to waste time and $$ getting that bachelors if it’s ultimately
not “needed” to sit for the MI Ps exam.That may sound bad and short sighted, but college classes don’t prove much of anything in my opinion. That’s what the exams were for, or so I thought
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