Party/Crew Chief calculating and setting pins?
I saw this on Reddit and I thought I’d see what this community thought of it. It seems that some chiefs calc and set their PLS’s pin and caps and then have it reviewed pre-stamp for correctness. Its not my flavor of tea for order of operations but appears to be for some, based on the comments in the Reddit post.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Surveying/comments/18ffaio/random_question_survey_practices_in_us/
Random question: survey practices in US.
byu/BlueRain87 inSurveying- 18 Replies
This is how it once was at most places. When I started c.1990 we did that. It was the job. The LS would subsequently review what we did, but I don’t remember ever being sent back to move something that we had set.
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This reply was modified 5 months, 1 week ago by Norman_Oklahoma.
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This reply was modified 5 months, 1 week ago by
That’s how I work, always did. Pre-license I didn’t go out to a lot survey, locate all the monuments in the block and walk away, I located all the evidence then calculated the missing ones and set them, same with sections. I’d go over it with the LS, but there was normally no reason to make multiple trips.
Today my PC has the ability to make on-site decisions, of course it’s way easier to send me some monuments to analyze with e-mail, text, ect. So it different now, but a good PC should be able to do many tasks without constant supervision.
A good LS should be able to present directions for each job to the “Man in the Field” on the plan of attack. Complete with a “if this, then that plan” to make adjustments. Also, with today’s equipment, including cell phones, the office can be provided information from the field in no time at all.
That being said, I still think the LS needs to be onsite enough to formulate those instructions appropriately.
Case in point, I was onsite yesterday to help search for a monument set in the 1960’s that I had failed to find over 30 years ago while surveying an adjacent tract. We dug deeper and in a wider area than what I may have investigated 30 years ago. Plenty of iron crap, but, nothing resembling the record monument, which may have been destroyed by the placing of a sieable post.
Oof. Sounds like those yahoos aren’t just talking about translate/rotate with office calcs, but doing their own calcs and then translating/rotating.
Like Norman, I remember doing translate/rotate early on in my career (~2005), but we always had office calculated points, and we always talked to the office about the solution before we set the monuments.
Sometimes all it took was “yeah we found all four block corners and the west adjoining lot corners, and they all match“. Other times we were on the phone with the office tech and the LS looking over their shoulder as they input our found coordinates and did the translate/rotate themselves, then gave us coordinates to stake and monument.
It took several years before I realized how poor of a solution a simple translate/rotate can be, and then going through a degree plus the licensure process made me even more aware of why it’s rarely a good idea to slam rods in on the same day. The only way I would do it these days is if I were in the field viewing the evidence with my own eyes, and it was a slam-dunk, can’t-miss, no-brainer boundary for which I already had all the deeds, title report, easements, etc., and I had already reviewed all of it prior to going into the field. That almost never happens.
“<i style=”background-color: transparent; font-family: inherit; font-size: inherit; color: var(–bb-body-text-color);”>ive been a party chief for going on 15 years and have always calculated my own corners from the very beginning, I just cant see how anyone stays employed that isnt capable of doing so.“
Yeah, bro, it’s not about calculating corners, it’s about evaluating the evidence and coming to a reasoned judgment. (And if you’ve been surveying for 15 years and still haven’t made that connection, you don’t have 15 years of experience…you have maybe a year’s worth of experience, 15 times over.)
In any case, anyone who sets my caps for boundary monumentation without talking to me first will never set another cap of mine ever again.
I would never expect an LS to allow me to make a boundary decision for them without any consultation whatsoever, and I would never ever put that responsibility on a crew chief. Not because I think they’re incompetent….but because they shouldn’t have to make that call themselves. “Responsible charge” means exactly that. I either have responsibility or I don’t, and if I don’t my cap shouldn’t be there.
“…people will come to love their oppression, to adore the technologies that undo their capacities to think.” -Neil Postman-
This reply was modified 5 months, 1 week ago by rover83.
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This reply was modified 5 months, 1 week ago by
Same. In a platted subdivision I went out with a copy of the plat, HP 41, survey software, and a thermal printer. Then reviewed with the PLS in the afternoon when I got back to the office. Of course, if anything looks out of sorts, I just located everything and brought it back to the office.
Geez, I had to quit reading. Sounds like the OP needs to put on his big boy pants and get his license since he seems to know everything already. He reminds me of a teenager. They know everything and their parents are dumb. Then later down the road, he’s going to realize that now he understands what they were trying to say and that they were right all along. I can still hear my dad say “you just wait”.
My boss would typically want us to attempt to set the bar. There is a high chance that we may have to go back and move it, but he still wants you to try. It would all depend on the job though. Lots of jobs around here can get pretty complicated and old survey’s that don’t fit the greatest anymore.
We don’t really have people going and building stuff off of property corners we set. We usually have to do layout for people doing construction.
Like Norman, I remember doing translate/rotate early on in my career (~2005), but we always had office calculated points, and we always talked to the office about the solution before we set the monuments.
This is one of the rare times I’m going to have to disagree with you, Rover. In my experience I would have a conversation with the LS over the research before going to the field, and a debrief after returning. But this was a day before cell phones (technically, they existed, but cost $1000 a month for a device the size of large salami with a battery life of about 20 minutes). Calling the office meant pulling up stakes and leaving the site in search of a pay phone. Fuhgeddaboudit! And we rarely had precalcs to translate/rotate – the exception being when the site was a lot in cul-de-sac with a lot of reversing curves and non parallel lines. Sometimes, if the office took pity on you. HP48gx and SMI forever!
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This reply was modified 5 months, 1 week ago by Norman_Oklahoma.
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This reply was modified 5 months, 1 week ago by
I didn’t use translate and rotate that much but it was standard protocol for us. We would be mentored and a plan of attack by the LS very much like Holycow mentioned. We had the deeds plats etc. many a many of lots i set up sited a back pin turned the angle from computing the bearing difference cked other pins of lot and adjacent lots. Its not always math. If you have a missing front pin we might set a nail temp at bearing and distance maybe set another from the adjacent see how they checked maybe a difference. Well what now single proportion or wiggle it in holding the bearing from each lot many times it fell between the two temp nails. Ck sidelines set backs row etc. fences talk to neighbors client. now we didn’t have data collectors it was field hook graph paper calculator. When i was not real sure for whatever reason i might set a hub and tack and one more on one of the lines say 3 or 5 ft so we could take the info back to office and let the professional help or he might even show up. Most of the time no return trip but occasionally we would have to return. Chanelocks and vice grips help with pulling rebar lol. Large boundaries we did the same. Adjusted traverse in field ran deeds out plats computed where it should be looked at other evidence. Set it. Or set a couple temp points where we thought it should be so easy to tape in if returning trip was required.
This is one of the rare times I’m going to have to disagree with you, Rover. In my experience I would have a conversation with the LS over the research before going to the field, and a debrief after returning. But this was a day before cell phones.
Oh, that makes total sense to me. We were rarely afforded a look at the research, we had something like 6-8 residential lots to do each day, so it was go-go-go get it done now. If we had had some direction from the office it would have been a lot easier…
“…people will come to love their oppression, to adore the technologies that undo their capacities to think.” -Neil PostmanUgh! I detest the mentality that is behind the charge to whip out six to eight different individual lot surveys in one day’s time. That puts our profession in the same status of the following scenario:
Hey, Joe, I need you to run to the supermarket for me. We are cooking up enough vegetable stew to serve about 110 people. Jake forgot to get any corn while he was buying all the other ingredients. Grab about 25 cans of corn off the shelf and hurry back.
If Joe started to ask questions such as: what size cans, what brand of cans, whole kernel or creamed corn, etc., the answer would be to get whatever was available. That’ll be good enough.
I detest the mentality that is behind the charge to whip out six to eight different individual lot surveys in one day’s time.
This is how pincushions happen. Precalc. Find 2 pins to jump on. Setup, backsight, and stake away. Box it, on to the next. Rinse and repeat. No time to check for existing pins that are under a leaf a tenth away.
Exactly. Cogo commandos. You can appthis whole scenario to what we did in the 90’s on construction staking jobs as well. Where new road curb and gutter ties into existing or sewer or storm etc. we in the field had been taught the requirements for slope percent grades so it flowed down hill or whatever. Re shoot check inverts look at the existing curb and gutter on main road and field adjust the elevation around the curve distance and back it back in because the design didn’t exactly match the existing. We new the limits so we made changes red lined the plans gave them back to the engineers as long as we were within the requirements and engineers simply re submitted the plans. All done from plans and a calculator in the field. Not the same now days. I did this on a church job and cad guy who was the manager caught my deltas as staked points were not to design as he calced from drawing. I have not been talked to that way since boot camp. Thank goodness my LS said explain what you did how you did it. I said the pc or pt didn’t match horizontally and vertically to existing by not much I think a few tenths of the new drive. I simply held the percent slope around the curves and down the straights without changing that much but lowered it a little to keep water flowing and blended it under it finally tied back at the low point. Of course I only had a point file and no plans. So i just used the data to solve the curves etc and did it on a notepad . I honestly don’t think the cad guy new that arc lenth was used or how and he most definitely never computed slopes percentages along anything. Awesome drafter but never had to do something from a plan set that was not digital. Just use design digital drawings and compute points. This is great for production but in my limited knowledge and experience cannot be good for the profession. Why can’t we just survey and think and try. Yes mistakes will happen yes budgets will be blown. But we would have a lot less parking lots with small ponds when grandma gets out on Sunday in her shoes to a water puddle that muck boots are needed. If your crews fail and they make mistakes they will learn. If the protocol and procedures are so ridged that a monkey can do it just stake this point list its not helping in long run. Of course i still miss toting a final set of rolled up plans to the field and I miss a field folder with deeds plays and notes by a LS that said hey over here at x corner we may have an overlap or gap by x distance. Look for both possible corners . No coordinates were given no csv file. Just good old bearings and distance. And what was called for historically so 1998 1/2” rebar set 1968 same corner 1” pinched top pipe set south of fence corner 1 ft etc. etc. I am a big fan of technology and love what it can do for us. But we need to sometimes get to teaching how to think instead of totally dependent on it. We have people who today will probably never ever look through the scope of a total station. I can count 4 crew chiefs today i have met that never have and if you say horizontal or vertical tangent screws knobs or lock them are like what are you talking about. Does the elementary surveying classes not give a test on naming the parts of a theodolite or total station anymore. I remember studying back up before I took the FS just encase. Lol.
Solo land surveyor party chief here. Unless I am really certain in the field I prefer to go back to the officce and run the calculations while sitting undisturbed with the power of the world at my fingertips. Much better than trying to think clearly while traffic thunders by and the sun is beating down.
But, it must be said I don’t have anyone pointedly asking me why two trips and howcome you are over budget (oh how I miss the good old days working at a large company with mandatory time sheets and clueless managers.)
I started surveying in the early 80’s when there was no data collector running cogo, no laptops to take into the field and no office fed precalced coordinates or search points. When the crews were sent into the field they were given a folder with all pertinent deeds and prior surveys of lots in the area. In most cases, that was enough information for a trained and seasoned PC to make educated determinations on where to set corners, except for on large tracts.
Transit men did not become PCs until they acquired the mathematical skills and experience to make informed decisions. Mentoring was a real thing back then. My PC used to show me what we were doing and hand me his calculator to calc things out, then, he would check my work, show me where I was wrong and explain why. They also taught me a ton on historical evidence, how to spot it or look for it and so much more. When we set corners, the PLS reviewed out work and almost never had to send us back to the same job to move anything. Those days are long gone with the advent of everything being digital.
I currently oversee six crews. I have only one Chief that I trust to set corners as I worked under him when I was a greenhorn and was lucky enough to hire him when I first started my department. I have two office techs calculating layout and search points, corners to be set and working on resolutions for my review and instructional input. Except for the technicalities of what we do, as licensees, virtually everything done in the field has changed to keep up in the digital age.
I have been surveying for 40 years, licensed for 30. I love it when some kid, straight out of college, having very little to no real world experience, challenges my decisions or conclusions. It’s the perfect time to sit them down, point out that their conclusions were in error and walk them through why they were off base. Some will understand and learn from it, others will reject it as that was not what their Professor (most of whom never surveyed) taught them. The ones who reject instructional criticism seldom last long on my staff.
HP 32s II is what I started with in the field it was a must. It was issued to us as we progressed. We had exactly what you stated. A field package that had plats deeds etc of our lot and adjoining lots. The LS had already read it and lined us out so we had some ideas of any issues etc. that might pop up. Now we have more power and computing power in the data collectors these days then the office had then. No hand comps of bearing bearing intersection. Etc. The digital world should make it easier to do this today. What is lacking is getting the upfront mentoring and the plan of attack that was done back then . When I first came back i did 4 boundaries in the first couple months. 1 was 1500 acres the others were smaller 10 – 20. One was a 1 acre lot. I have still not seen a deed or plat or anything on those . Just go locate stuff. Cad person draws them up ls stamps. No other direction discussion etc. Not even a question of why did you locate this or why didn’t you locate that. I was shocked and still trying to wrap my head around the thought process today of why none of this is done these days. Yes i know we have young folks that are good with technology and pick up on how to run and navigate all the menus of the data collectors and make short cuts etc. we need the mentorship and training again.
True issue 25 acre boundary. Done corners computed drafted plat sealed. A seasoned crew goes out to set corners. Just a csv file. Not from me. I get the call. Something is not right. So i dig into it and say yes something is not right let me call the manager. Manager sais call cad person. Cad person said nothing wrong tell them to stake them. I call my guy back locate the creek and those pins on that line you say fall 25 ft from where you are staking. Send me the data. I pull info deeds etc say looks nice . So i call big boss. He is like oh man. Stops everything crew goes to another job. 2 weeks late i get nice catch we figured out what happened. This is all not just a blunder but a lack of communication along with direction. Thank goodness my sr chief called me as he had already had the talk with manger and the cad guy . He said why didn’t they give us the deeds and plats as part of the field package anyway. I am sending vice grips to them for Christmas. To pull the iron pins 😂
Our area is littered with limestone just under the surface, so half the bars we set end up hitting rock and we have to pull them back out to drill. Vice grips and a pry bar are part of the regular tools, maybe this is part of why it’s not considered a big deal for us to go back and move a bar 0.05m if the boss calcs it differently.
I don’t have a problem with it. In fact, I encourage it. Technology has made it where it’s less of an issue now. Recently we had a project where I knew that the circumstances would be for the crew to have to set the corner in the field and explained it to them. They did and I verified after the fact.
For the last few years we have used cloud technology where the crew can send the points up and, with a VERY good digital working sketch, take 10-30 minutes to compute the boundary, while improvements are being mapped, load them back to the cloud for the crew to stake.
The sad part about this method is that it makes the crew rely more on that crutch than actually evaluating the data in the field, and while I eschew this for some projects, others should and ultimately what I end up seeing is a throwing up of hands when a corner isn’t found and load the points rather than make basic calculations to get closer.
When I started, we were still running around with a 42S in your pocket and you didn’t run a lot of calculations due to the laborious nature of it; however, with a 48 it made some things easier. Now, with a digital working sketch in the background and the ability to pick points, the field crews, while more efficient, have lost some of their “dog fighting skills”. As usual, it depends.
Kris
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