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I have found plenty of evidence in the field of random and true lines. I am not sure why you don’t think the actually surveyed like the said. There certainly were plenty of less then truthfully surveyors during the contract error, but there are more that are astoundingly accurate considering their tools. Maybe you work in region dominated by a bunch of unethical surveyors? And are guilty, like many on herr, of extrapolating their local experience to the world?
- Posted by: @paden-cash
Would you accept the corner?
In general, in that situation, I’d be leaning towards whatever solution put me nearest the CL/CL intersection of the statutory roads. In other words, the roads themselves are the best monuments you are ever going to have. It sounds like the found nail gives you cover to do just that. I know that you have seen some of my OCCRs, so you can guess how I’d document it, starting with “accepted found PK nail at apparent CL/CL intersection of well established roads” and ending with dimensions to corners in all directions including those north and south (in addition to the required three references within 5 chains).
Posted by: @jimcoxA nail is not what I would call a great monument.
Certainly not a “permanent reference mark” as defined in the NZ regs.
I wouldn’t either, but it is very commonly as good as it gets in Oklahoma. The original monuments were “pits and mounds” – a hole dug in the prairie with the associated dirt pile beside it – and now fall within graded dirt roads. No prayer of finding anything of the original. The nail Paden’s colleague has found is likely in a sort of pavement that is composed of generations of accumulated road oil/sealer sprayed to keep the dust down.
If I didn’t have enough local knowledge about the corner and surrounding corners I’d farm it out to someone who did.
In Fl if you start digging up any State Road with so much as a teaspoon (let alone a backhoe) you will be fined. ????
1-1/2″ P-K nail REJECT
2-1/2″ P-K nail- now that’s a City of Sacramento major monument so of course ACCEPT
- Posted by: @flga
If I didn’t have enough local knowledge about the corner and surrounding corners I’d farm it out to someone who did.
It’s probably is not realistic to assume that there is anybody out there with “local knowledge” in these cases. Many of these sections have not been surveyed within living memory. In some cases the last survey was done by the GLO, c. 1910. Roads were probably graded out shortly after the GLO ran through, and the area has been agricultural since. There has simply been no reason to survey anything. If the land happens to be within a mile of a state highway or an oil derrick/pipeline things might be different. But that leaves a lot of territory. And any surveyor who admitted to setting the PK nail found in this case would have to admit that they failed to file the OCCR required by state law.
I think that there is a failure to understand the rural Oklahoma situation. The records are very sparse and the land values are low.
By all means, pull the nail and check for anything else under it. If there is anything under this “PK”, there is no record of that, either. So would we be any further ahead? The originals were, most often, pits and mounds. Possibly a stone. There will never be any record traceable back to the original. Now this is (probably) a graded dirt road, maybe with an inch of pavement on it. Not a built up pavement structure. The pit/mounds are obviously gone, and 99% probably the stones too. I suppose you could dig up the whole intersection with a soup spoon looking for a stone. Nobody is going to do that – it would cost more than a quarter section of land! The GLO did not set references to these corner in most cases because the ground was prairie grassland. There were no trees in the section!
All these suggestions to dig more and find records……There are none. There are GLO notes & OCCRs. Deed descriptions might help. Then whatever you find in the field. Work with that. And the primary thing you have to work with are the roads themselves. Any solution that doesn’t follow the road and put you within a few feet of the apparent CL/CL is not going to be acceptable. The one thing the OK surveyor has going for him is that the GLO dimensions are usually within a few feet of true.
There is always one person who knows more than anyone else living about a given area. They may not know enough, but they know more. Finding that person is just like looking for one more place to search for information. They may be easy to find, or have moved semi-recently, or retired, but, a search can be made that might pay benefits. Just one more step on the ladder to the truth. Do not hesitate to take that step.
There was a county road and bridge director in a nearby county who happened to be a licensed surveyor since the time when they first licensed them here. His first job with the county was as a crane operator assisting with bridge construction. He was a walking encyclopedia containing ten tons of trivia that just might set you on the right path. He had known the surveyors who practiced in that area going back into the 1920’s. He had listened to their stories. He made sure the courthouse vault was loaded with information of various forms that typically got pitched in other counties out of ignorance. Cancer finished him off less than a week after completing one more survey. As it has been written, a library burned down the day he died.
If the nail isn’t in the Cl-CL intersection and is at a mid-point prorate then I would probably reject it and use the CL-CL intersection, since there isn’t any record of it, not much weight could be placed on it.
Of course, there’s lots of questions tied to these issues.
Does moving it the 16′ a prorate would shift it put it nearer the CL-CL intersection?
- Posted by: @mightymoe
If the nail isn’t in the Cl-CL intersection and is at a mid-point prorate then I would probably reject it and use the CL-CL intersection, since there isn’t any record of it, not much weight could be placed on it.
Of course, there’s lots of questions tied to these issues.
Does moving it the 16′ a prorate would shift it put it nearer the CL-CL intersection?
Moving the corner to a more proportionate location e-w seems to take it away form the cl-cl.
But here’s the part that’s interesting to me (I just found this out in an email this morning): The n-s road is a recent county project that graded and put an asphalt surface down. There was an old culvert just north of the intersection that was replaced. This has happened in the last few years. There’s evidence that some older (now graded out) fences lined up a little better with a location that now seems off centered. There apparently previously has been some extensive grading/ fill at the intersection.
Without giving out too much of my buddy’s info this project is for R/W staking to place a new overhead pole line for a few miles. What could be simpler? 😉 The crew will be back out there this week, probably with wood and flagging. The reality of the business is that they’ve already burned up a lot of time chasing their tails and something is going to “get in the ground”…right or wrong.
A canvassing of all the ‘oily’ surveyors that have seemed to have been out turned up nothing and the closest well or pipeline is over 2 miles away. My final “opinion” to my colleague was to place a new corner at a proper double-proportioned location (ground distances, cardinal equivalents and the whole bit…make Dennis Mouland proud) ,get some wood in the ground and move along. Then file one of the most defensible corner records that the county has ever seen. I really don’t think anybody could come up with a good argument for the PK except that it is “there”.
- Posted by: @paden-cash
Then file one of the most defensible corner records that the county has ever seen.
Right, wrong, or indifferent; this is the BEST thing you can do…
Posted by: @paden-casha good argument for the PK except that it is “there”
That might be the “best” argument.
There seems to be 2 choices; well, maybe 3:
- Accept the the PK and move on.
- Devise some wing-ding; double dang doodle; proportion. Or
- Draw a line between those 2 points and call it smack dab in the center. (This would be #3)
And maybe 4:
Renting a backhoe and scouring the intersection for original evidence, seems all but futile. Although not completely unheard of in certain Regions of Austin TX.
Your mileage will, of course, vary…
What ever you do; refer to the first Quote…
I hope everyone has a great day; I know I will! Good advice. One other thing to look at is old aerial photos, they usually go back to the 30’s. If they show old occupation lines or road that line up more with the nail then the double proportion position, it might give that position enough weight to accept it.
@aliquot and @paden-cash
To follow-up with aliquot’s suggestion. If the road improvments are recent, I’d suggest the 2008 and 2019 NAIP imagery for the area. The nice thing about NAIP is that it is georeferenced so you can quickly compare the images. Feel free to PM me and I can download the images and send to your friend.
@dougie
When I ran crews for highway work we had access to equipment. And in most cases we had clout with the county folks. Digging up a county intersection (with an ADT of 12) was no problem at all. There are still plenty of corners (stones) out there that were lowered when they opened the section lines to roads. In this area the original monuments were wooden posts, and not very prominent at that. One could perform a forensic exploratory opening to look for the remains of a rotted post…if they had the time AND a good idea of where it may lay. But in this case the location of the culverts, the creek, and in the presence of the fill, I feel it would be futile.
And since my buddy has his rural co-op breathing down his neck I’m gonna say a “dig” will probably never happen. I bet by my second cup of coffee in the morning there’s already wood in the ground and the crews will be spotting poles.
On a good note: the next surveyor will find a filed corner reference and a mile of power poles to corroborate the location!
- Posted by: @paden-cash
On a good note: the next surveyor will find a filed corner reference and a mile of power poles to corroborate the location!
That’s the thing. Set and document something that future surveyors will find easy to accept.
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