Activity Feed › Discussion Forums › Strictly Surveying › Alley, alley, who moved the alley?
- Posted by: @dmyhillPosted by: @paden-cash
He drove a stake in the ground at the approximate corner.
He being the owner of the property…not Paden
Mr. Cash was the one in responsible charge of the action. It was his expertise that guided the property owner’s hammer.
Yeah, you already did a survey, but it probably wasn’t to state standards. I would get out there and rectify that fast.
I didn’t take that away from the story. I think he was pretty careful to either not have that be the case or at least not put that in the story.
My point is that getting your PLS doesn’t magically mean you cannot tell other people what they might need to know in order to understand where their boundaries are.
I think the best point is that “no good deed goes unpunished”.
I dont think Paden needs any of my help and doesnt need me to defend him, and probably doesnt give any more thought to our judgements than he does to the lawyer. But I have a huge issue with the implication that you cannot help out your neighbor, that you cannot help others understand how boundaries (and the associated concepts) work without it turning into a need to record a survey.
Not trying to harp on this…but his expertise…does that mean that if the neighbor had read Brown, then Brown would be surveying?
-All thoughts my own, except my typos and when I am wrong.- Posted by: @dmyhill
My point is that getting your PLS doesn’t magically mean you cannot tell other people what they might need to know in order to understand where their boundaries are.
I think there’s a pretty big difference between that and digging up pins and pulling tapes. ???
I’m with Paden on this. He was not doing a survey at all. He did not even get close to establishing a corner, let alone address the issue of would the area where the lath was stacked be on, close to or over the true boundary line.
But, you must understand I believe that if my buddy needs someone to help carry some boards so he can nail them where he wants them that I can do that and the local carpenter’s union can kiss my rosy, red ……………. There are too many excessively tight sphincters in this world who enjoy finding problems where there are none.
I spent a few years working in a place where 27 different unions were engaged every day. Witnessed the most amazing stupidity being applied quite frequently. Common sense should be far more common.
Y’all are a hoot. I never even thought that through as far as you all have, one way or the other. I guess technically I should claim the other day was just day one of the field work…with the remaining work to be performed at a later date. As for the placed lath, that was all on the property owner. I really wasn’t even there when he did it.
I’ll stay neutral on the subject of whether dragging a tape along a few front yards should be considered a survey. I will agree it is indeed at least part of a survey.
But let’s change hats for a minute. Let’s say a doctor is playing golf with a friend. The friend complains of a headache. The doctor suggests he take some aspirin when they get back to the clubhouse. When they finish the round the friend falls dead from an aneurysm. Is the doctor guilty of a misdiagnosis? Would it be any different if the doctor had said, “Jeez, I hope it’s nothing serious. You should see a specialist when you get a chance.”
Just wondering out loud. 😉
The difference between the doctor and a surveyor is that medical care is a personal thing. When you showed your friend where his boundary was, you were also showing him where his neighbor’s boundary was.
I think most would agree that if your neighbor paid someone who didn’t have a licence to do what you did, that person would be surveying without a license.
I am not saying that the potential liability you have brought on yourself should exist, but unfortunately it does.
In this case it appears that even if your guess at the corner location was wrong, no substantial damage was done, so I wouldn’t loose any sleep over it, but attorneys, and land owners, can be vindictive people. You can never tell what will anger them enough to sink unreasonable resources into getting “even”.
The bull left the pen when your friend told the attorney about you.
I mostly agree. What I think is somewhat humorous is how quickly the subject turned to whether or not my actions constituted a survey or whether there was any extended liability. Hey, I’m a grown up. I can take care of myself. I realize others may disagree, but I wouldn’t have walked away from what I did for my neighbor if I thought there was a chance of any appreciable error that would have affected the corner’s location.
But isn’t approximating corner locations what we do all day long anyway? There’s always error in what we do. Recognizing said error and weighing it’s effect against the positional accuracy of a derived corner location is a part of every survey.
So let’s call my actions a survey. I believe I satisfied myself as to a probable location of my neighbor’s missing corner. Line was established using my eyeball, three other existing pins and the well-placed expansion joints of several driveways. Crude? Yes. inaccurate? Hardly. Here’s what our state’s minimum standards say:
245:15-13-2. Minimum Standards
(c) Minimum technical standards for land or boundary surveys (field and office).
(13) Accuracy of measurements.
(B) In residential or commercial subdivisions where the length of lines does not exceed 300
feet, the area of tracts does not exceed 2 acres, and there is no plan for zero lot line
construction, the allowable closure error is 1:10,000 or the allowable positional error is plus or
minus 0.25 feet.I have a very high level of confidence that when I set my neighbor’s missing corner I will have to move the placed lath to get the pin in the ground. I believe my positional accuracy is probably in the neighborhood of > 0.10′. I wouldn’t have walked away had I not been that confident.
As for the attorney…pfffft. They’re a dime a dozen. I wouldn’t have changed my actions if it had been the three surveyors on Mt. Rushmore that knocked on my door (they were probably also attorneys). I’m thinking maybe (and I’m just thinking out loud here) land surveyors could lighten up a bit when it comes to “fear of litigation”. I believe it is a disservice when our actions are more for our protection than that of the client’s needs. I really do.
All my neighbor really wanted to know was if a stack of salvaged lumber was on his property, or did it hang over onto his adjoiner’s property. I determined that for him. In this case without an extraneous amount of effort. And if I do no more work on this project I will still stand by my actions.
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I had a conversation with another surveyor member of our group the other day. I related a recent instance where I was tasked to mark the public R/W for pole crews that were making over a mile a day. This particular section line had multiple corners at one end, about 7′ apart from each other. Needing to keep ahead of the crew I realized I probably didn’t have the time to really dig into it and resolve the issue. I chose the corner that most fit the fence on the side of the road where the work was being performed. In an hour I was a mile ahead of the crews. I realize there are a number of surveyors that would be adverse to this. Some might consider it poor practice, or at least foolish.
Here’s my take on it: I didn’t set either of the corners. They both had filed corner records claiming a perpetuation of the original corner. I made a “judgement call” and used the corner that best fit the visible occupation of the land. And if a surveyor can make it through his or her entire career having the time to perfectly satisfy themselves without having to make a judgement call they would be damned lucky.
I’ve been surveying over 50 years, but I’m not saying that has anything to do with it. There’s a chance I merely have 1 year of experience…fifty times. What I am saying is that judgement calls have been an integral part of my career. I would also venture to say a surveyor’s career might be more well defined by their judgement calls than their technical abilities.
Nate, I’m having a difficult time getting passed “when the GIS was created, and made public, the discrepancy was revealed” ????
I was just putting some calc positions for a 4 lot survey in a rural town, I have lots of surrounding control that fits great, the GIS shows buildings in streets, alleys, fences over lines, basically a typical local GIS area.
However, it’s probably a good statement to use in court.
Moving the GIS lines to match up with the SE corner of the concrete apron at the southerly garage would make it somewhat close. I would say that locally the landowners have dismissed the GIS lines for the most part, the word seems to have gotten out that they are bogus.
Saw many that looked just like that back in the early days of the GIS maps in our county. The only thing that helped was that the common citizen did know they existed. It was typically an appraiser or a real estate broker or a lender who obtained a partial map (they weren’t in a computer yet) from the county who discovered there was a huge problem. They would tell the poor person they were working for that this had to be squared away before they could do anything else. That lucky soul had the honor of calling us and begging that the fix be quick and cheap, which it was usually neither of those. Nine times out of ten there was no problem in the real world, only in the world of the lowly GIS worker.
Those calls have lessened here to a trickle but landowners were sure making them in those early days. GIS is important, addressing, getting the fire engine to the correct site, the police can respond faster. That stuff needs to be as correct as possible, the lines are not as important. I still like what a county I work in did, as you zoom in to a location you can have parcel lines on or a photo on, but not both together.
So you are saying that if someone finds one corner, gets out a tape and finds another corner, then they are surveying?
Does this magically become surveying if the person has license? Apply that to other professions: Lawyers would never be able to talk about the law outside of a client relationship. All of us would be able to claim that Dr. Oz is our doctor.
Again, I resist this line of thinking. I completely understand your position, and in practice, I limit my exposure on this sort of thing. I have no desire to explain myself to the board. But, if someone like Paden has a bit more courage than I have, it doesn’t mean he is doing something wrong, and I see no benefit to my profession or the public in condemning his actions.
-All thoughts my own, except my typos and when I am wrong.- Posted by: @paden-cash
I would also venture to say a surveyor’s career might be more well defined by their judgement calls than their technical abilities.
Technicians get paid pretty close to minimum wage for their technical abilities.
Good judgement is worth a lot of money, however.
-All thoughts my own, except my typos and when I am wrong. - Posted by: @dmyhill
So you are saying that if someone finds one corner, gets out a tape and finds another corner, then they are surveying?
Does this magically become surveying if the person has license? Apply that to other professions: Lawyers would never be able to talk about the law outside of a client relationship. All of us would be able to claim that Dr. Oz is our doctor.
Again, I resist this line of thinking. I completely understand your position, and in practice, I limit my exposure on this sort of thing. I have no desire to explain myself to the board. But, if someone like Paden has a bit more courage than I have, it doesn’t mean he is doing something wrong, and I see no benefit to my profession or the public in condemning his actions.
Oh I’m not condemning anyone. I just think when you’re licensed things can come back to bite you easier than others. I’m sure a lawyer or doctor has been burned a time or two giving armchair advice.
I find it ironic that people are upset because a surveyor put a temporary stake in the ground after checking on both sides, but it happens all the time with little fanfare that another surveyor will find a couple pins and put the math into the ground with “permanent” monuments, after no checking of other surrounding monuments.
.A quick responce.
1. I am usually one of the people saying surveyors are to concerned with liablity.
2. Of corse it’s all about professional judgment. A surveyor who isnt using their judgment on boundary surveys, shouldn’t be a licensed surveyor and doesn’t d understand boundary.
3. In the unlikely event that someone tries to claim you are liable for financial damages in this case, the opposing attorney will have a field day, becasue you didn’t use the unusual standard of care in your “survey”.
4. I am not trying to judge your actions. You know better than a bunch of arm chair commentators what the risks were. I just wanted to point out to less experienced surveyors reading this that they should proceed carefully when offering their opinion on boundaries.
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