Comments?

He is lucky that he only punched him in the eye and did not shoot the SOB.

I saw that this morning on CNN and it just shocked me. In our County outside of the city then they pay a fee each year and I think it's probably like the $75 fee mentioned. Pretty cheap when you need it.

BUT, if you do not have a contract they will still respond but you or your insurance will pay a much heavier response fee after the fact. If you had the $75 contract then you would pay nothing but instead you might have to pay several thousand dollars.

We have zones in the county for each fire department and cross contacts between all of them for mutual aid which typically happens in some of our large grass fires that overwhelm a small rural department.

My first instinct when reading this was that of a doctor watching you bleed to death because you didn't have insurance.

Just because it's the law or policy does not make this right for the man to lose his house and his animals while watching them hose his neighbors lawn to keep it from spreading. Put OUT THE DAMN house and that would have kept it from spreading also!

I was talking to the fire chief about this story this morning. Evidently, the county provided no fire protection for the rural citizens and a city picked up the slack, but for a fee. This owner hadn't paid the fee.

I've found, locally, this seems to be the attitude of many "paid" departments but not of volunteers like myself and others on this board.

While the argument can and has been made that you pay your insurance every year, so should the fire protection be paid, the alter argument is that it is a fundamental service that should be provided by the state or government no different that police or law enforcement.

While I can't speak intelligently about the rules and law governing Tennessee, I can say that in Texas, the counties pick up the rural fire protection and give some money to the rural volunteer departments. That is not nearly enough and there are many grants from State agencies for these departments to get equipment and training so as not to burden the state with every grass fire. These have worked out well in our little neck of the woods. Many have some fund raisers every year but the county allows a pittance charge for every call made. Many departments are filing on insurance of many wrecks and some house fires. As of yet, our department only does wrecks and if there is no insurance, then we just do it.

I think the main point is the dynamic shift in thought patterns between paid departments and volunteer departments. They were under orders from presumably the city council to not engage unless paid in full. There are costs associated with every fire and $75 doesn't even come close. Hell, it won't even pay for the water to be filled in the trucks afterward, not counting fuel and wear and tear on the gear. Volunteer departments either are staffed by adrenaline junkies or people who just want to help, and sometimes a combination of both (like myself).

There is a city North of me that used to provide rural fire protection and received money from the county for it. The informed the county some years ago they would no longer be participating and no longer receive money from the county, but have interlocal agreements with the rural departments for mutual aid. What this means is they send a two men and a grass truck to "help" when called. This was not made by the rank and file fireman, but the chief at the time and the city council at the time.

It's a horrible situation that wouldn't have happened in my home county or in Texas as I'm aware of, but I would think that one of two things will happen. One, a law suit will be presented to the city or county for lack of response or negligence or failure to preform their duties (most emergency responders that are licensed have some kind of clause to preform, even if not on duty) or two, a rural fire department will be made in that area.

Either way, a tragic event occurred due to bureaucratic nonsense and I feel it's far from over.

Timeless Tactical Truth No. 5 from the Silver City, Oklahoma Volunteer F.D.

"In most cases, extinguishing the fire solves the majority of the problems."

That would probably include black eyes.

DJJ

What has this country come to? This is an incredible story. That certainly isn't the way it is here.

This is the standard practice in many areas in Missouri. The property owner has a tag/number on his mailbox or somewhere very near the primary entrance indicating their fire registration number. No tag, no fire protection. Fire protection is for a fee because the landowner is not part of the official service area where everyone is paying to have the service.

Here, whether municipal or volunteer, every property is covered via a specific portion of the property tax on that property. The various fire departments have their home territory and then sign mutual aid agreements with the adjoining districts. It is common to find three or more fire departments onsite, especially in rural areas.

I fully understand why the fire crew did not go on the property where the fee had not been paid.

Since the Firehouse is only helping subscription paying persons, they are declaring themselves a self supporting organization.

It would seem appropriate that the Firehouse should loose all its grant monies and other state or federal support if they are not willing to offer aid to the public as a whole.

Andy

Excellent observation, but it won't work like that. I'm sure they think their $h!t don't stink.

I've heard similar stories about private fire companies, but I believe the annual fee amounted to much more than $75. Seems such a shame to lose all you belongings and pets over $75.

The solution is for the fire departments to be funded by tax monies that every property owner pays.

The department only has a responsibility to their home district. They owe no allegiance to anyone else. In fact, the firemen may not be covered for injuries suffered while fighting a fire at a site outside their home district. Also, any damages to the fire equipment may not be covered by insurance. Most fire departments are underfunded. They must operate as a business, not as a charity. The property owner in the news story was trying to avoid paying a fee for a service he was gambling he would never need. It was a bad gamble.

My nephew has been involved for years with a local fire crew and with an ambulance service. I have learned from him why these services must be operated like serious businesses.

Holy Cow

You can't operate government like a business. It doesn't work. I am not a fan of pay for fire/police/EMS services. Yes, they are all underfunded, just like every rural fire department that I know of. You still put the damn house out.

I fully understand the rural fire departments in Oklahoma and have worked with many of them. They do a wonderful job with usually less than adequate man power and certainly equipment that is often on the verge of being accepted into the Smithsonian. They barely scrape by and often rely on benefit chili cook offs or other means for just basic funding of fuel. Many pay for their own PPE.

That said, to be feet away and spraying grass to protect someone who has paid while watching another house burn down just is not right.

If you come upon a car wreck and only one family has insurance do you let the others bleed out in the car?

There policy needs to be like ours. You pay the fee (basically another form of insurance) and there is no charge for a response. You don't pay the fee then you pay for all the expenses of the response.

Yoy are correct about the fire protection beig part of the property tax. That is how it works here.
But you are wrong about it being exclusive to a certain district. That is just wrong and flies in the face about the role of a first responder.
Think of the worst possible scenario and it can happen and probably will in time.
When you start to emphasize the value of profit over human life, you are planting the seeds of Fascist thought.

Kris

No, you don't. You standby.

Holy

So would you have set on a truck full of water at the road and watched it burn? I could not have even if it means that I would get fired or reprimanded.

For some the term First Responder means just that and not some job like that of a pro football player.

Robert Hill

> Yoy are correct about the fire protection beig part of the property tax. That is how it works here.
> But you are wrong about it being exclusive to a certain district. That is just wrong and flies in the face about the role of a first responder.
> Think of the worst possible scenario and it can happen and probably will in time.

Well said, and I've seen most peoples worst nightmare come to life on more than one occasion.

I WILL not stand by idle and not help when someone is in need. I will help in the safest possible manner.

Last week, got a call to a structure fire. Those always suck. I was first on the scene and didn't drive an apparatus. I get there, no gear, and a lady is yelling to me there is someone still inside. The structure is half-engulfed in flames and the other half about to flash. I yelled to the house and made it as far as the door (outside mind you) before nearly being overcome with smoke. I radioed the first truck and it was 30 seconds away. I backed out and drug hose off and geared up and was one of the first ones in. We found the lady and her two pets, dead. Bad scene. She was 5 feet from the door, in poor health and hopefully, she was overcome with smoke and dead before the fire got to her, I can only pray.

Those scenario's play out daily around the world. I can't imagine being a department show up to guard the adjoining house 25 feet way and not put out the burning house where the woman lost her life. I'll get off the department before I EVER do that.

> "I think the main point is the dynamic shift in thought patterns between paid departments and volunteer departments."

I agree Kris.

The State of Texas started Emergency Service Districts that can be voted on locally with a board of local citizens to help with funding volunteer departments. Our area has been covered for about 14 years now. My wife is on the board. The rest of the county is now covered by a separate district. City limits lines don't mean anything to us.

James

The people, referring to the community at large, has decided that they do not want to pay to support an existing or new service. In this case, a fire service. Anyone living within that community is subject to the same liability. It could be their property on fire the next time. Nevertheless, they have made the choice. Individuals have the option of having fire protection by paying a nominal fee. In this case, only $75. Paying that fee is up to them. So, the fools who chose to live in this "cheaper" neighborhood and then also chose to not pay the $75 received exactly that for which they bargained....nothing. Do not put fault on the fire department. Meanwhile, the homeowners have also been paying a much higher fee for their home insurance because the insurer already knows they have no fire protection.

Rural property owners pay much higher home insurance premiums than property owners within 300 feet of a fire hydrant with a Class A fire department staffed 24/7 by highly-trained personnel. It's a fact of life based on the choice they make. For example, I own one farm that is 14 miles one-way from the fire station of the nearest volunteer crew, which might only really be two guys at 2:30 in the afternoon because everyone else that volunteers is at work somewhere else. That would also be the location of the nearest fire hydrant. Refilling the tank on the truck would be from a garden hose at the nearest house, three miles distant, which is supplied from a well onsite or make a 28 mile roundtrip to the fire hydrant.

Holy.

Filling with a garden hose or pumping from a pond are just technical difficulties as is trying to start a wore out apparatus sometimes. They have nothing to do with the ethical and human response to someone in need by a first responder.

Not everyone lives in town and we have counties that are very sparse in population. That means little in the way of revenue but many that live out in these supply food from their farms for many towns.

I just cannot believe that ANYONE could stand by and watch this happen. What if someone HAD been in the house and that they could have saved?