Duane
Ralph, we agree. Unfortunately, it is politics. I tell my students they need a four year degree if there's any way possible for them to pursue it. The one available in NY gets you 4 years toward an LS and 6 toward the PE. The past 15 years has seen the LS decrease in value as there are fewer things allowed. The new definition bill would have helped but I think it is either dead or watered down by the PE's so much as to be no improvement (n exemption related and other things).
Engineers, architects, and landscape architects must manage the spatial relationship of the objects they are designing, and other nearby objects and terrain, to insure the objects they design will have the desired functional and aesthetic characteristics. They must make, or have made, the necessary measurements to discover and/or lay out the required spatial relationships. They are responsible to their clients to meet the standard of care expected in their respective professions. I see no free ride.
Oh, electrical engineers on certain projects are responsible for determining the position, to appropriate accuracy, of not-so-nearby objects and phenomena such as satellites and aurora.
This thread has been a perfect example of the problem with many Land Surveyors, they don’t take the time to truly understand client’s technical and business requirements. Many Land Surveyors cannot get past “their” own business issues including understanding measurement equipment.
If we Land Surveyors want to be understood, we should first seek to understand our clients. That means understanding client’s technical and business requirements. What does the client intend to use our deliverable for?
CCRI offers a two year program that meets the Board of registration requirements. There is a Core set of courses that must be taken by statute in RI. The course has not been offered the last two or three semesters due to lack of participation.
So RI requires a two year degree in order to get licensed as a Surveyor but has no effective in state program supporting that end.
RI has the same problem, as I understand it, as many schools offering Surveying Courses, the lack of students taking the courses to make the program viable. Many Engineering programs are dropping the mandatory requirement of land surveying in order to meet credit hours in other areas. There is some discussion in GIS Geomatic circles requiring mandatory surveying courses which would help the viability of the surveying programs.
eddie
The Inclusions and Exclusions to the Practice of Land Surveying was established by committee that thoroughly vetted this question so why should it not apply to Engineers also?
[Sec-210-25] Inclusions and Exclusions to the Practice of Land Surveying is not consistent with the Model Law. Although this section was contemplated as being directed toward GIS, I would suggest that the definition is relevant to Engineers also. The definition of surveying is laid out in [Sec-210-25] Inclusions and Exclusions to the Practice of Land Surveying and a distinction is made as to what is considered land surveying and what is not. The only portion left undefined was “Authoritative”. Why should the definition of Land surveying different whne it comes to engineers.
There are many states that allow engineers great leeway in the area of “incidental” Surveying and I have observed many states attempting to set the limits by insisting that Baselines and Control segments of projects must be set by Land Surveyors.
I have had many discussions with engineers and the consensus I get is that they do not want to do surveying and if the they need a Surveyor they will sub-contract one.
So the question is when is it a survey and when is it an incidental activity to a project. The dividing line is clear when you determine what is “Authoritative” and the bottom line is getting Officials responsible for accepting plans and services to insist on the “Authoritative” product to insure the protection of the general public.
>
> So the question is when is it a survey and when is it an incidental activity to a project. The dividing line is clear when you determine what is “Authoritative” and the bottom line is getting Officials responsible for accepting plans and services to insist on the “Authoritative” product to insure the protection of the general public.
I like this response. :good:
With Authoritative being the operative word.
Ralph
RI requires a Two Year degree that meets the Core Courses required by Statute
and four years under the supervision of a registered Land Surveyor.
RI also has a yearly Continuing Education Requirement for land surveyors that the engineers are not subject to.
I agree that eduction is important, but so is being mentored by a qualified individual.
Some one that has chosen surveying for a career looks at surveying differently than a person that views it as an incidental activity.
eddie
The problems with the inclusive/exclusive material are
1. The only state board involved was the land surveyors board, so they had no authority to make unilateral changes to the rules for any other licensed profession (and they didn't).
2. Professional engineers are different from GIS practitioners and all other unlicensed persons because they proved they have education and experience in their profession, including measurements related to their area of practice. They are also registered and a disciplinary mechanism exists.
It is certainly within the purview of the Board of Registration(BOR) of Professional Land Surveyors to interpret and enforce the Statutory Definition of Land Surveying without consulting the Engineer’s BOR.
It is also within the purview of the Board of Registration of Professional Land Surveyors to enter into a Memorandum of Understanding (MOU) with the representative body of GIS Practitioners as it relates to the practice of land surveying.
I believe that the definition Land Surveying established by the MOU is sufficient for all the educated Professionals that would otherwise encroach upon the inflexible Statutory Definition of Land Surveying here in Rhode Island; the BOR of Professional Land Surveyors does not necessarily agree with my position and seeks to work out a “Task List” solution.
We are no longer practicing in the 1950’s of transit and tape, Surveying is a specialized professional field and Licensed separately in all 50 states, and some states thought it best to separate the BOR’s to maintain the integrity of land surveying and to better protect the public.
It is not within the purview of a board of land surveyors to interpret the statutes regulating engineers. If those statutes say engineers can measure stuff, they can, the land survey rules notwithstanding. Likewise, if the rules for lawyers say they can prepare title abstracts, they can, the land survey rules not withstanding.
nm
NYLS
I am an engineer, and I believe I have the requisite knowledge to perform engineering surveys, moreso than most "land surveyors". Your statement that engineers do not know how to do surveying is probably true in some cases, but I have met plenty of enginners who specialize in surveying, and do a very good job at it.
I have also met "surveyors" that don't know a whole lot about surveying.
I would really like to see the model law applied to PE's, and provide a path to licensure as a PE as an engineering surveyor. As it is now in many states, the licensing boards do not recognize engineering surveying as a discipline of engineering, nor do they recognize it as a path to survey licensing.
NYLS
> I am an engineer, and I believe I have the requisite knowledge to perform engineering surveys, moreso than most "land surveyors". Your statement that engineers do not know how to do surveying is probably true in some cases, but I have met plenty of enginners who specialize in surveying, and do a very good job at it.
>
> I have also met "surveyors" that don't know a whole lot about surveying.
>
> I would really like to see the model law applied to PE's, and provide a path to licensure as a PE as an engineering surveyor. As it is now in many states, the licensing boards do not recognize engineering surveying as a discipline of engineering, nor do they recognize it as a path to survey licensing.
Kept me from being licensed for many years:good:
> RI requires a Two Year degree that meets the Core Courses required by Statute
> and four years under the supervision of a registered Land Surveyor.
>
> RI also has a yearly Continuing Education Requirement for land surveyors that the engineers are not subject to.
>
> I agree that eduction is important, but so is being mentored by a qualified individual.
>
> Some one that has chosen surveying for a career looks at surveying differently than a person that views it as an incidental activity.
>
> eddie
I can now see that I totally disagree with this. How does someone learn subjects like Geodesy and Least squares without learning Linear Algebra and Calculus? I highly doubt that the RI 2 year degree covers these areas, furthermore I highly doubt this could be learned through mentor-ship.
You just finished posting:
We are no longer practicing in the 1950’s of transit and tape, Surveying is a specialized professional field and Licensed separately in all 50 states, and some states thought it best to separate the BOR’s to maintain the integrity of land surveying and to better protect the public.
I think I'm going to humbly suggest you get with the times.
Ralph
You may have to take extra courses to meet the requirements of the Core Curriculum and to meet the colleges minimum requirements for an Associates Degree at the same time..
Many Engineering Degrees have dropped mandatory Surveying course for engineers in order to maintain other required course loads.
My point on the mentorship is that there is a necessary element of on the job training of 4 years after receiving a LSIT to the next step of PLS.
So the quickest you could get licensed in RI would be six years - 2 Year degree to take the LSIT and then work full time with a Surveyor for 4 years after LSIT for experience.
I agree the body of knowledge required to properly do the job of surveying should require a four year degree to cover the necessary subject matter such as Least Squares and Geodesy.
But what I don’t agree with is that an Engineer wit a four year degree that has taken no required survey courses and has not mentored under a Registered Land Surveyor is eminently qualified to do surveying work because of his education and licensure. (I think that assumption has gone the way of the transit and tape)
eddie
Reading the documents you like so much, an engineer should not be allowed to authoritatively state that two foundations are 25 feet apart, or to state the latitude and longitude of a radio antenna to the nearest 10 arcseconds. Unless you repudiate your claim that limitations aimed at GIS practicioners should apply to other licensed design professionals, I interpret you position to be that no design professional except a land surveyor should be allowed to make an authoritative statement involving any measurement of any fixed object or terrain, even if the measurement can be accomplished with the most rudimentary equipment and skills. And of course I disagree with such a position.
Remember that the documents you cited don't say anything about what equipment is to be used, or what mathematical techniques.
Also bear in mind that the electrical engineers who designed the total stations and GNSS receivers can probably operate them better than you can, and the programmers who built least-squares adjustments into your favorite software package can probably do a least-squares adjustment better than you can.
Ashton:
That is exactly the problem when you attempt to define what “Authoritative” is. If you look at the existing state statutes defining the Practice of Land Surveying in the strictness sense, then only surveyors are allowed to make measurements.
There are of course many professionals and academic people who are technically proficient and capable to take measurements, but that doesn’t necessarily make it “Authoritative”
I think we can agree that there are certain things that should be completed under the direct supervision of a Land Surveyor as regulated by a States inherent "police power" in order to promote public safety, health, morals, public convenience, and general prosperity.
“Authoritative”is not limited to Boundary only; and Only the Surveyors Stamp carries the weight of an “Authoritative” measurement according to most state Statutes.
eddie
In my state the land surveyors board is only interested in regulating boundary surveying. The statute does not prohibit land surveying by "licensed or qualified members of other professions or trades from performing duties incidental to those occupations." [26 V.S.A. § 2503] (But of course these others may not use the title "land surveyor".) Naturally the duties of other professions are set out in the statutes about those other professions, so anything explicitly stated in those other statutes is allowed, land survey statutes notwithstanding. And there is also the "incidental" area, which can be grey. But clearly in Vermont the land survey board is only interested in boundaries.
“Authoritative”is not limited to Boundary only; and Only the Surveyors Stamp carries the weight of an “Authoritative” measurement according to most state Statutes. (as stated in the above posting)
I searched the entire US statutes database and found no reference to "authoritative" and/or "land" and/or "survey" and/or "surveyor" and came up 'empty'!
Would you be so kind as to furnish a cite to reference your statement?
Thanks!
daw
Most State statutes, under the strictest interpretation of the language, give the authority to Registered Land Surveyors only to “perform the act of measuring and locating lines, angles, elevations, natural and manmade features in the air, on the surface of the earth, within underground workings, and on the beds of bodies of water”
Most states that I have researched have similar language. Remember these laws were first enacted to protect the public from fly-by-night operations creating fraudulent water well mapping, at a time when, as many courts still mistakenly do, refer to engineering and surveying as the same body, rather than cut from the same cloth. Most states now have separate licensure for surveyors giving them the purview of "authoritative" measurements.
A stamped, certified, or sealed document is evidence of a complete document, unless otherwise qualified, therefore "authoritative" (I don’t think surveyors would want to be liable for their unsealed unfinished working documents). . . So a Surveyors Stamp carries the weight of "authoritative" as enabled by statute.
Portions of RI Statute below referring to "authoritative":
§ 5-8.1-4 Board of registration for professional land surveyors – Authority, powers, and duties. – (a) The duty of the board of land surveyors is to administer the provisions of this chapter in regards to the regulation of professional land surveying and the registration of professional land surveyors.
§ 5-8.1-2 Definitions
(6) "Certificate of registration" means a certificate issued by the board of professional land surveyors to a person to engage in the profession regulated by the board.
(11) "Practice of land surveying" means any service or work, the adequate performance of which involves the application of special knowledge of the principles of mathematics, the related physical and applied sciences and the relevant requirements of law for adequate evidence to perform the act of measuring and locating lines, angles, elevations, natural and manmade features in the air, on the surface of the earth, within underground workings, and on the beds of bodies of water for the purpose of determining areas and volumes, for the monumenting of property boundaries and for the platting and layout of lands and their subdivisions, including the topography, alignment, and grades of streets and for the preparation of maps, record plats, field note records and property descriptions that represent these surveys.
(12) "Practice or offer to practice" means a person who engages in land surveying, or who by verbal claim, sign, letterhead, card or in any other way represents himself or herself to be a professional land surveyor.
ejob
