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TI-84+ for survey class?…. or HP35s
Posted by summerprophet on May 12, 2018 at 1:25 amHi there,
Has anyone used a TI-84+ for surveying?
Myself and a few other surveyors are building a survey program out of the existing engineering program, and the students are already required to have a TI for their pre-calculus class.
I was going to make an HP35s a requirement, but if we can easily and quickly perform hms+,hms-,p->r and r->p with a TI, then I will go and learn TI??s programming language.
BStrand replied 5 years, 9 months ago 22 Members · 33 Replies- 33 Replies
Not sure this is a worthy project. Maybe if it was 2005, and I’m not being snarky. Why not develop a mobile app that does the same stuff on an android or Apple platform? Maybe even have it receive a NMEA string for data collection.
A TI-84 is a 14-year-old calculator. Look to the future, not the past.
- Posted by: FrozenNorth
Not sure this is a worthy project. Maybe if it was 2005, and I’m not being snarky. Why not develop a mobile app that does the same stuff on an android or Apple platform? Maybe even have it receive a NMEA string for data collection.
A TI-84 is a 14-year-old calculator. Look to the future, not the past.
I would think that you are still not allowed to bring phones into the examination halls. Or has times change again? I remember in school, they would only allow certain models for examination.
HP35 can be found loaded with survey programs made by surveyors and are used at some state exams.
TI has always been the mathematician and scientist standby.
Knowing how to use different systems to obtain the same result is a needed skill in itself.
Frozen North,
I think you have misunderstood my post. I am not writing a survey program for a calculator.
I am instructing a survey program at a local college.
The students are already required to have a TI, wondering about making them get an HP as well. Jusdging by what I have read (and watched video of) the TI is painfully slow at entering HMS values, so there is an advantage to having the HP.
And as far as your comment about 14 year old technology, I still use my 48 daily (1993 technology). And while you are scratching your head wishing there was an app to do those calcs, I can usually whip together a calc program to do it in a matter of minutes.
My experience is you will need to teach them how to use some calculator for engineering, math, and surveying. You will also need to teach them applied math. You will also need to teach them how to write, and read. Well, I digress. Require the 35s and plan instruction time in its use and eventually programming (after they learn how to do it the hard way).
Reach out to your local surveyor organization.
We furnish an HP35 and one textbook each fall to freshman surveyor students at a local college.
I’m a HP fan. But if the students already have TIs I can’t see making them buy HPs just for the class. Frankly, only a few of them will go on to use any kind of calculator as surveyors. And I agree with those who recommend an Android solution
HP35s is my personal choice. But for your purposes it’s the least appropriate option.
BTW – every calculator is more or less 1985 technology at best.
One consideration is what may be used for Fundamentals and Professional exams. As HP has discontinued development on most calculators, they only have 2 left that are allowed.
- Posted by: [email protected]
Frozen North,
I think you have misunderstood my post. I am not writing a survey program for a calculator.
I am instructing a survey program at a local college.
The students are already required to have a TI, wondering about making them get an HP as well. Jusdging by what I have read (and watched video of) the TI is painfully slow at entering HMS values, so there is an advantage to having the HP.
And as far as your comment about 14 year old technology, I still use my 48 daily (1993 technology). And while you are scratching your head wishing there was an app to do those calcs, I can usually whip together a calc program to do it in a matter of minutes.
You’re right–reading comprehension fail on my part. Can’t go wrong either way, but I remember in my undergrad, it was nicer to just get proficient with a single calculator. Most of us had a TI like you describe.
At the risk of threadjacking, I use my HP50g quite regularly since I have a very large number of programs that I’ve written since late 1991 when I received a 48SX as a gift.
It is quite unfortunate that HP abandoned RPL with its release of the (cough) “Prime” calculator.
As for requiring an HP35… tough call.
The only superior evidence is that which you haven’t yet found.I used a TI-89 for calculus 15 years ago and it was junk for surveying.
I took the FS & PS with a TI-30XIIS which is allowed by NCEES so I would say stick with what can be used on ht exams.
The benefit of everyone using the same calculator in class is the ease of being able to quickly help a student that is having trouble with a problem. Often times, it is simply entering keystrokes in the proper order.
Having said that, I have a small arsenal of calculators, some HPs, some TI, and some Casio. They all have their place in the collection, and each one has a particular strength. I would humbly suggest that for a surveying class, require a calculator that is easy on the budget, the TI-30XA is a pretty inexpensive calculator, is on the approved list, I believe, and easily converts from DMS to DDS and back. I personally like the HP35S, but I can work with whatever calculator is required. I often work the problem with one type, then double check my calculations with another one.
I have the TI-84CE Plus that was required for my statistics class last year, and I used it some this semester in my Intro to Least Squares class for the matrix calculations, and even found a vector program for it. I have not tried to do DMS to DDS with it. The other calculators are just too easy to use to try to figure it out on that one.
- Posted by: Jimmy Cleveland
<snip>
I would humbly suggest that for a surveying class, require a calculator that is easy on the budget, the TI-30XA is a pretty inexpensive calculator, is on the approved list, I believe, and easily converts from DMS to DDS and back. I personally like the HP35S, but I can work with whatever calculator is required. I often work the problem with one type, then double check my calculations with another one.
</snip>
Sounds like they will already be purchasing a second calc for your class. I like ‘cheap and able to be used in the exam’. Only thing I don’t see (or know) is, can the 30xa be programmed?
If they don’t need it after your class, they can always sell to the next grunts (as long as you don’t change the calc requirement).
Is this a program for technicians or professional surveyors? If it is a four year program for professional surveyors I think it is inappropriate to require a specific calculator. In the introductory classes that are about measuring and calculations a calculator should only be used for arithmetic and basic trig functions, so any scientific calculator will do, and even after that, you shouldn’t be teaching which buttons to push. We have enough button pushers in the profession already.
There is nothing wrong with making a recommendation or showing students what different types of calculators have to offer, but if they have to be told which buttons to push I would rather they don’t become surveyors. A program for professional surveyors should be teaching concepts, how to adapt them, and how to come up with solutions to complex problems on their own.
As an aside, it is a sad state of affairs that engineering and surveying students need to take pre-calculus after they graduate high school.
@aliquot Hear, hear!
I teach a technician level program, but we feed into a Bachelor’s program, so we talk about licensure and the exams quite a bit.
Most of our students come from high school with some sort of TI-83 or TI-89, which is required at our college for the advanced math classes. We tell them it’s not allowed on the FS or FE exam, and to get used to using one that is well before they plan to take it. We also introduce them to Reverse Polish Notation, and explain that some people like it and some people don’t. (I myself use Excel so often that I usually just plug in one big, gnarly formula into my TI-89, or grab values from the stack.)
My recommendation is to let them use whatever calculator they want, tell them to read the user manual and practice the examples in it, and that you are not going to give tech support for every calculator under heaven. They’re in college, now, after all. 😉
For what it’s worth, I really like the TI-3o XIIS in terms of ease of operation, button selection, and that it can be used on the exams.
I use an hp11c emulator on my iPhone.
HP35s all the way, because it’s exam approved, and more importantly, the Reverse Polish Notation (RPN) makes it easier to break a problem into steps AND WRITE EACH STEP AS YOU GO. The algebraic entry makes it too easy for a student to key in the whole problem in one go and to write the answer down without thinking about it. RPN makes it easier to show your work, and makes one look at the intermediate answers. Easier to catch fat finger mistakes, and easier to “debrief” after a test (or a day in the field) if intermediate steps are shown.
I would argue that if you’re using a scientific calc with a stack (history), you can still do the intermediate steps, then copy them into your big formula.
I would also point out that because TI has a stranglehold on the K-12 public education sector & textbooks even include button workflows for the TI-84, switching to RPN in a college program would likely slow most students down, introducing confusion because of the tool, not the math. 20% of my current students have trouble with algebra, let alone trig, and if I can avoid added confusion from learning a new way to use a calculator, I’ll take it.
You need to learn the HP35s yourself, then teach them.
A supposed survey program that doesn’t teach how to use the exam approved calculators is only handicapping the students.
Why are the TIs not permitted?
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