What to do with calls for off line monuments along a senior line?
Quote from tfdoubleyou on August 30, 2024, 7:13 pmIn this situation, the descriptions of the adjoining parcels are actually out of a plat, albeit one from the 1940s. In my area, it was common in the era for only 'control corners' of a large map to be monumented, expected that surveyors later would monument the individual lots as it was needed.
The map shows that lots are to adjoin the 'good' line. The monuments, though most are likely decades old, came later and were not set by the original surveyor.
In this situation, the descriptions of the adjoining parcels are actually out of a plat, albeit one from the 1940s. In my area, it was common in the era for only 'control corners' of a large map to be monumented, expected that surveyors later would monument the individual lots as it was needed.
The map shows that lots are to adjoin the 'good' line. The monuments, though most are likely decades old, came later and were not set by the original surveyor.
Quote from chris-bouffard on August 30, 2024, 8:48 pmHUH?
HUH?
Quote from murphy on September 1, 2024, 8:16 amI deal with this situation on a case by case basis, but I always begin from the position that humans create boundaries then use maps as a proxy. I don't disagree that senior and junior title exists, but I question it's relevance when the "garbage" boundaries have existed for numerous decades AND the owners of those parcels have openly used their parcels to their full extent.
It's important to note that boundary resolutions require time, patience, and follow-up. I'm not a judge and can only provide an opinion. The exchange of quit claim deeds after the survey has been completed is often necessary to prevent clouds on title. If you're a turn and burn type survey shop, just hold the senior line and be done with it and continue to tell yourselves that the kind-hearted altruistic attorneys will straighten things out.
My results are often mixed. I might put a bend in the senior boundary line because an abutter has her fifty year old shed resting on her off-senior-line monument, and I might ignore something similar on an undeveloped lot. Again, the actions of humans make boundaries not math or drafters. We've also established on this forum that the ownership of property, real or otherwise, requires defense, meaning you might have to walk your boundary every 19.99 years of risk losing a small portion of it. Think of the millions of humans who would love to have the problem of owning so much land that they can't be bothered to inspect it more than once every generation.
The other part of the equation that is grossly overlooked by many PLSs, is the input of the owner or developer of the large tract. I generally like my clients and my business model is heavily client focused. I'll explain the pros and cons of holding the senior line absolute vs a more nuanced approach that could include holding all or some of the junior monuments and the subsequent exchange of quit claim deeds. When you remove ego and the human desire for symmetry from the equation, it often makes sense to hold the junior monuments and keep peace in the neighborhood.
The management of expectations and feelings is an important component in land development. In one instance, I prepared an exhibit for my client, a suburban developer, so he could "magnanimously" quite claim his interest in the overlaps to the abutters. Unlike the engineer mind, the developer didn't care one iota that the long straight line was now rife with unsightly bends. Nor did he view it as wise to create the potential for dozens of lawsuits that would be necessary to flesh out the legitimacy of adverse claims to his title. He was, however, grateful to have an inexpensive bone to toss to a group of abutters who weren't exactly thrilled over the idea of a new development.
I deal with this situation on a case by case basis, but I always begin from the position that humans create boundaries then use maps as a proxy. I don't disagree that senior and junior title exists, but I question it's relevance when the "garbage" boundaries have existed for numerous decades AND the owners of those parcels have openly used their parcels to their full extent.
It's important to note that boundary resolutions require time, patience, and follow-up. I'm not a judge and can only provide an opinion. The exchange of quit claim deeds after the survey has been completed is often necessary to prevent clouds on title. If you're a turn and burn type survey shop, just hold the senior line and be done with it and continue to tell yourselves that the kind-hearted altruistic attorneys will straighten things out.
My results are often mixed. I might put a bend in the senior boundary line because an abutter has her fifty year old shed resting on her off-senior-line monument, and I might ignore something similar on an undeveloped lot. Again, the actions of humans make boundaries not math or drafters. We've also established on this forum that the ownership of property, real or otherwise, requires defense, meaning you might have to walk your boundary every 19.99 years of risk losing a small portion of it. Think of the millions of humans who would love to have the problem of owning so much land that they can't be bothered to inspect it more than once every generation.
The other part of the equation that is grossly overlooked by many PLSs, is the input of the owner or developer of the large tract. I generally like my clients and my business model is heavily client focused. I'll explain the pros and cons of holding the senior line absolute vs a more nuanced approach that could include holding all or some of the junior monuments and the subsequent exchange of quit claim deeds. When you remove ego and the human desire for symmetry from the equation, it often makes sense to hold the junior monuments and keep peace in the neighborhood.
The management of expectations and feelings is an important component in land development. In one instance, I prepared an exhibit for my client, a suburban developer, so he could "magnanimously" quite claim his interest in the overlaps to the abutters. Unlike the engineer mind, the developer didn't care one iota that the long straight line was now rife with unsightly bends. Nor did he view it as wise to create the potential for dozens of lawsuits that would be necessary to flesh out the legitimacy of adverse claims to his title. He was, however, grateful to have an inexpensive bone to toss to a group of abutters who weren't exactly thrilled over the idea of a new development.
Quote from thebionicman on September 1, 2024, 10:15 amIf the 'junior' monuments have been relied on for the statutory period, they will control in many cases. The truth we miss is that establishment occurs when the fact pattern is met, not when blessed by a surveyor or (gasp) the courts. If my survey uncovers evidence the line is now bent, I say so. I also document it in the best way allowed by the jurisdiction. That is almost never a plain Jane quit claim. If I don't get the whole story in the record the fight may reignite down the road. Get the owners to agree and memorialize it. Burying it under a QCD just covers the cat poop with another slice of bread...
If the 'junior' monuments have been relied on for the statutory period, they will control in many cases. The truth we miss is that establishment occurs when the fact pattern is met, not when blessed by a surveyor or (gasp) the courts. If my survey uncovers evidence the line is now bent, I say so. I also document it in the best way allowed by the jurisdiction. That is almost never a plain Jane quit claim. If I don't get the whole story in the record the fight may reignite down the road. Get the owners to agree and memorialize it. Burying it under a QCD just covers the cat poop with another slice of bread...
Quote from chris-bouffard on September 1, 2024, 1:12 pm"If my survey uncovers evidence the line is now bent, I say so."
Under what authority to you alter respected title lines that have long standing harmony to bend lines to Jr. points found?
"If my survey uncovers evidence the line is now bent, I say so."
Under what authority to you alter respected title lines that have long standing harmony to bend lines to Jr. points found?
Quote from thebionicman on September 1, 2024, 3:58 pmI don't bend the lines, I report them as recovered. That includes explaining the evidence on my recorded map and walking the owners through correcting the record to reflect the established lines..
I don't bend the lines, I report them as recovered. That includes explaining the evidence on my recorded map and walking the owners through correcting the record to reflect the established lines..
Quote from Norm on September 2, 2024, 10:40 amthe original descriptions of the two parcels are in harmony and fit the evidence.The (1940) map shows that lots are to adjoin the ‘good’ line.
If this is your professional opinion how do you get from that to this?
their presence (off line monuments) creates an area that is either a gap in two described parcels, or a conflict in description.
If you really believe what you state in the first quote you can't believe what you state in the second. Retracement surveys by definition never change a legal description. They give the legally described course and the as measured course. The "good" line either passes through existing monuments or it doesn't. Nothing is created. I do question on what basis the rerod at the NW corner of the south parcel was set on the survey shown. It seems the general line of existing monuments would be six or seven feet north. Why ignore the general line of existing monuments and set a new monument? I imagine there is a reason, we just can't see it. There are two directions a professional survey might take here and neither one creates a new issue or leaves behind an old issue. The surveyor should suggest all parties involved to agree that the existing monuments are not on the good line and place new marks on it or if they would rather bend the common line through the existing monuments do what is required to make that happen. Document the agreement as part of the survey. If they won't agree there is no survey completed.
the original descriptions of the two parcels are in harmony and fit the evidence.The (1940) map shows that lots are to adjoin the ‘good’ line.
If this is your professional opinion how do you get from that to this?
their presence (off line monuments) creates an area that is either a gap in two described parcels, or a conflict in description.
If you really believe what you state in the first quote you can't believe what you state in the second. Retracement surveys by definition never change a legal description. They give the legally described course and the as measured course. The "good" line either passes through existing monuments or it doesn't. Nothing is created. I do question on what basis the rerod at the NW corner of the south parcel was set on the survey shown. It seems the general line of existing monuments would be six or seven feet north. Why ignore the general line of existing monuments and set a new monument? I imagine there is a reason, we just can't see it. There are two directions a professional survey might take here and neither one creates a new issue or leaves behind an old issue. The surveyor should suggest all parties involved to agree that the existing monuments are not on the good line and place new marks on it or if they would rather bend the common line through the existing monuments do what is required to make that happen. Document the agreement as part of the survey. If they won't agree there is no survey completed.
Quote from BStrand on September 3, 2024, 9:02 amI think this is a situation where occupation would carry a lot of weight. If the adjoiners are occupying to these random pipes then maybe you have a headache brewing, but if the occupation is closer to the original line then I think I'd be pretty comfortable holding that line and rejecting the pipes.
Surveyors who call out ‘off-line’ monuments like this, what is your intention?
Their intention is to dodge responsibility.
I think this is a situation where occupation would carry a lot of weight. If the adjoiners are occupying to these random pipes then maybe you have a headache brewing, but if the occupation is closer to the original line then I think I'd be pretty comfortable holding that line and rejecting the pipes.
Surveyors who call out ‘off-line’ monuments like this, what is your intention?
Their intention is to dodge responsibility.
Quote from Norman_Oklahoma on September 3, 2024, 9:39 am"Their intention is to dodge responsibility."
"Dodge" carries a certain connotation. "Avoid" is a more appropriate word. The surveyor - presumably - was tasked with resolving the northerly parcel and not with solving all the world's boundary problems. He determined that the intermediate found monuments did not control the lines of the parcel he was surveying. He went the extra step of showing where they fall in relation to the controlling line. He is not obliged to resolve all the boundaries of the adjoiners as well. That would be making the perfect the enemy of the good.
"Their intention is to dodge responsibility."
"Dodge" carries a certain connotation. "Avoid" is a more appropriate word. The surveyor - presumably - was tasked with resolving the northerly parcel and not with solving all the world's boundary problems. He determined that the intermediate found monuments did not control the lines of the parcel he was surveying. He went the extra step of showing where they fall in relation to the controlling line. He is not obliged to resolve all the boundaries of the adjoiners as well. That would be making the perfect the enemy of the good.