Unlicensed Surveyors in Senior Positions

This is a situation that almost never works out. About 10 years after being licensed and in responsible charge I wanted to test the waters and submitted my resume to another firm to be their PLS of record and run the department. When I went for the interview, the unlicensed individual that interviewed me made it clear that I would be reporting to him and that he would be reviewing every plan before I got approval to issue it.

The interview turned into a back and forth question/answer session in which I learned that this individual had already failed the exam two times. Needless to say, I walked away from the offer with no regrets. I later learned that it took several more attempts before he finally passed his exam and could fill the position by himself.

What sort of opinion guys had about PLS having an unlicensed surveyors in senior positions

Define 'senior positions'.

I can think of a lot of cases where someone without a survey license was much better suited to a project manager or operations manager position than a PLS. Especially a PLS who's strong point is boundary and production and is weak in management/leadership and is more suited to a project surveyor role (your milage may vary when it comes to organizational titles.

Having someone without a license hounding a PLS on billing or admin functions can be beneficial. On the flipside, no unlicensed person (including a non-surveyor pe) should be setting policies or making decisions regarding survey methods and judgments. That arrangement is a trainwreck waiting to happen and can violate the laws, rules, and standard of care for exercise of responsible charge. When they overstep and blow it up we are often required to inform the client our judgment has been overridden.

Define ‘senior positions’.

I just mean someone that is further up the managerial hierarchy than the PLS and exercises the latitude that typically comes with those higher ranking roles.

I just mean someone that is further up the managerial hierarchy than the PLS and exercises the latitude that typically comes with those higher ranking roles.

That's pretty much been my case my entire career. The smart ones let the PLS be the surveyor. Great upper level management teaches management and business, not surveying. I've learned way more about how to be a smart businessman from a PE than a PLS but have not learned one iota of surveying from a PE.

Are you referring to a PE or accountant running the business side of a company? That happens all the time, it's one reason I've avoided corporate situations.

But heck, my accountant who I hire, runs aspects of my business. I listen to them.

No one in their right mind would have an accountant run their surveying or engineering company. They typically know nothing of our business. While they may have an occasional useful idea of what to do with the $, they aren't involved in making it.

This is a very interesting topic. So before I put my foot in my mouth. I am not licensed yet. I am working towards that goal.

I had a PLS under me. I was responsible for planning and implementing the procedures for each project. Now I am no dummy. I worked with my PLS he was great and I had the utmost respect for him. I knew my strengths and my weaknesses. He knew the same. So we complemented each other. For example. He knew very little about GNSS the science or theory behind it. He knew how to perform boundary work and much more obviously. I would say he was the prime example of a a practicing professional. If he didn’t understand something he came to me and did his own research and often came back to me. Now we both worked under another LS. Me and the LS under me never had any issues at all. He still calls me on my opinion when someone else even with a LS asked him to do certain things he is uncomfortable with or lacks the background in. Now it was an uncomfortable situation for me honestly because I had to address any issues on any job with him. But at least I hope I never talked down to him or tried to pull rank. Now I am not bashful when I see something wrong even from a superior either. I had some good toe to toe discussions with my previous boss who was an LS. Sometimes it would take a lot of documentation to prove to him I was right on certain things. I think if you are building a team you hire the right players to feel the right positions regardless of the title I just lucked up and fit a certain position Could that LS have done that position Absolutely in many ways he would have been better but he didn’t want that and we learned together . Honestly he mentored me on boundaries and I opened him up to and proved to him just how powerful GNSS could be when understood and performed correctly. Also LSA and building network vs just a standard loop around a site.

Not in a Licensed survey role but as a E3 in the USMC I held a E7 billet for non military that’s a peon or bucket toter being a manager. I had E7 following my orders for any survey work then they would put me back in my place when that mission was over .

I believe a LS is and has proven they should be in the higher position But they also at least the wise ones know when someone else has more expertise in a certain subject. That’s in any situation. Not always the norm nor the average either . I am in a new role now and I am relying heavily on those under me in teaching me what they know .

Hopefully my poor writing skills didn’t butcher this to bad As I have the most respect for a LS and hope to be one sometime soon But LS surveyors can dabble in a lot of different disciplines in this profession and not one can be a total master of all the different disciplines. I have come to realize I will never be a master drafter especially from a production standpoint I am getting better and more proficient but some people just have a natural ability an art to just making a plat or map just pop So I accept my weaknesses but still try and improve The LS I am working for now reminds me daily not to get discouraged or let my lack of drafting stop me from getting licensed He said he is not much better but that’s why he has a team of drafters one of his best never surveyed before So all comps and quality control are done a rough idea of where the info needs to go and that young man makes it into a true work of art .

It boils down to attitude and knowledge and talents being placed in the correct roles that makes the winning team

I don’t see the lack of licensure being the key issue. Many Gen-X and younger surveyors have had to suffer the consequences of grandfathered PLSs who not only don’t understand GNSS or statistics but become obstacles in the path to knowledge. I learned more about what not to do to become a good surveyor from the second PLS I worked under. In fact, the only senior manager that asked me to do something unethical was a PLS. There are young jerks, old jerks, licensed idiots, unlicensed idiots, and everything between.

There were likely warning signs that you either didn’t notice or ignored when you were interviewing for your former position. Did you ask to see a recently recorded plat produced by their office? Did you ask about a nightmare job and how they worked through it? Don’t waste your time and energy stewing over the unlicensed guy, review the steps that led to you accepting a job that didn’t align with your values and make a course change when you interview the next firm. Good luck, I bet this will turn out to be a good thing for your career after the dust settles.

I just mean someone that is further up the managerial hierarchy than the PLS and exercises the latitude that typically comes with those higher ranking roles.

As far as I'm concerned, the "latitude that come from higher ranking roles" has no effect on professional decisions. Unless the manager is willing to seal the survey themselves.

I mean, on our org chart, as Senior Vice President of Design & Survey, I'm directly above (in the managerial hierarchy) the Directors of Site/Civil, Transportaion, Structural, and Geotechnical Engineering. I have zero latitude when it comes to decisions that fall withing the practice of engineering; I have a lot of latitude when it comes to organization, P/L oversight, the types of projects and clients we pursue, staffing priorities, etc..

I do at times review their plans, but it's for legibility, constructability, completeness, compliance with published standards and client specific requirements. More like "looks like you forgot the bioretention area as-built checklist on page C-15" or "shouldn't the floodplain delineation limits have an extra foot of freeboard based on this county criteria", not "you need to change these runoff comp assumptions to reduce the SWM treatment volume."

There were likely warning signs that you either didn’t notice or ignored when you were interviewing for your former position.

Yeah, definitely learning, mostly the hard way, the importance of asking the right questions during the interview. 😏

I had a similar situation where my employer was dictating how I performed work under the umbrella of my license. An attorney I am friendly with explained it like this.

“Joe, you can do what they ask (which violated zoning) and eventually you may find yourself in court or before your Board defending your “negligent” action. My guess is that you will lose your license. Without your license you cannot have this job so you will be fired. You can refuse to do as your (unlicensed) employer is instructing you to do and you will probably be fired. The difference is you leave with your license. Your license is how you earn a living. Your choice. Remember people have no respect for your license, they have never had to work to obtain a license so if you lose your license, they will hire another.”

As far as I’m concerned, the “latitude that come from higher ranking
roles” has no effect on professional decisions. Unless the manager is
willing to seal the survey themselves.

Right, and that would be no problem if the person was actually licensed.

I was told 'I can't make you stamp this, but if you don't do it (my way) I'll take it to another PLS and have them stamp it'. I ended up stamping it not because I cared what this guy thought, but because I didn't want to put another PLS in the position of being asked to stamp something they had no hand in creating, and to a lesser extent because I knew both ways were technically acceptable.

In hindsight I probably should have let that other PLS make his decision. Either way I was screwed; when you have someone aggressively undermining you that way you're just totally screwed.

The PLS will need to be in charge of decisions relating to his license. The business might be a separate issue. But if there is a conflict between business deciders and the PLS regarding a surveying issue the PLS should prevail.

It's why I've avoided many opportunities to jump into corporate America. The environment consisting of managers, lawyers, accountants, engineers in senior positions, and HR (yuck!!) departments isn't for me.

That being said, accountants, lawyers, engineers have their place. It's better for me to hire them, that way it's understood who is ultimately in charge. However, I don't discount their opinions on law, taxes, 401k structures, contracts, sewer/road design. My accountant handles all the tax, 401K, quarterly reports, how WC payments, LLC payments, ect. are done. I don't interfere with any of that. I ask questions and try to learn.

ERC flyers were almost a monthly thing here, I got one with my bank in the header the same day I was meeting with the accountant. So, I asked about it, the one from the bank said I could be eligible for $120k tax free money. Of, course it wasn't from my bank, it's a total fiction, somehow they got one of my banks and shoved it in their email. The accountant pushed a couple of keys on his computer and showed me where it was taken care of in 2021 I think.

Do I let the accountant run some aspects of my businesses, yep!!

Do I let anyone else tell me where to place a section corner monument? Nope!!