@holy-cow we have filed (not recorded) Surveys at the County Recorders since the 19th century.
The trouble with private records is they can disappear when their steward leaves the scene. Even pseudo public records such as the Public Works Department files can face destruction when some records retention milestone is arrived at. We are missing most of the survey records produced prior to about 1950; they were in other offices and got dumpstered when the Department reorganized.
The County Recorder never throws anything away.
So it may seem annoying to have to comply with rules but it isn??t that much of a burden in light of the fact the record may be around for 100+ years.
My point is that records are being placed in this other repository willingly by surveyors so that surveys that are not required to be recorded officially and maintained until Hell freezes over still have a place to be stored which aids everyone.
Our other repository is indexed in great fashion such that it is incredibly easy to search quickly and efficiently.?ÿ The official recording is indexed in only one way and that is tying it to the property involved only.?ÿ That is highly restrictive.?ÿ It gets worse in some counties compared to others.?ÿ Literally, slinging 40 pound books for hours on end is no fun.?ÿ Meanwhile in OUR files, our indexing is vastly superior.
Say you are working in the NW4 of Section 9.?ÿ It is fairly routine to search Sections 3,4,5,8,9,10,15,16 and 17 for surveys that may be of help on at least one of the government corners needed to solve the breakdown of Section 9.?ÿ We have about 40 years of section corner reports and some of those are wrong.?ÿ There are a huge number of corners that have no filed/recorded survey since the GLO work.?ÿ The historic center for filing surveys was in OUR files, not the Recorder's Office or the Clerk's Office.?ÿ Virtually all boundary survey work prior to about 1950 passed directly through the County Engineer/Surveyor Office.?ÿ Those will not be found in the OFFICIAL office where certain surveys are to be recorded.?ÿ The Recorders office, which in our case is the Register of Deeds Office, is the search of last resort as so few have been recorded compared to the tons of information available in the next room down the hall.
As long as the filed surveys have equivalent permanence and protection to recorded documents its 6 of one and a 1/2 dozen of the other. Chain of custody and public availability are what is important.?ÿ?ÿ
What is wonderful is having a way to have a repository of surveys without them being officially recorded.?ÿ We add new surveys on a regular basis to our files in the two counties where I am the reviewer of ALL surveys that are to be recorded and the two others where I share that job with another surveyor.?ÿ That way the repository is not subject to all the other BS that goes with officially recording it.?ÿ The surveyors who need access to that information for later work have a much greater total resource to search.?ÿ This is especially helpful for surveys of city lots and blocks that have no real need to be officially recorded.
What is "all the other BS that goes with officially recording it"? I walk it across the street to the Recorder's Office and tell them to record the maps. Easy peasy.
My point is that records are being placed in this other repository willingly by surveyors so that surveys that are not required to be recorded officially and maintained until Hell freezes over still have a place to be stored which aids everyone.
Our other repository is indexed in great fashion such that it is incredibly easy to search quickly and efficiently.?ÿ The official recording is indexed in only one way and that is tying it to the property involved only.?ÿ That is highly restrictive.?ÿ It gets worse in some counties compared to others.?ÿ Literally, slinging 40 pound books for hours on end is no fun.?ÿ Meanwhile in OUR files, our indexing is vastly superior.
Say you are working in the NW4 of Section 9.?ÿ It is fairly routine to search Sections 3,4,5,8,9,10,15,16 and 17 for surveys that may be of help on at least one of the government corners needed to solve the breakdown of Section 9.?ÿ We have about 40 years of section corner reports and some of those are wrong.?ÿ There are a huge number of corners that have no filed/recorded survey since the GLO work.?ÿ The historic center for filing surveys was in OUR files, not the Recorder's Office or the Clerk's Office.?ÿ Virtually all boundary survey work prior to about 1950 passed directly through the County Engineer/Surveyor Office.?ÿ Those will not be found in the OFFICIAL office where certain surveys are to be recorded.?ÿ The Recorders office, which in our case is the Register of Deeds Office, is the search of last resort as so few have been recorded compared to the tons of information available in the next room down the hall.
Our recorded maps are in an awesome GIS. Click on the property and get all of our recorded maps back to the 1850's.?ÿ
Part of the BS is the only large plats they will accept are for full-blown major subdivisions.?ÿ Everything else is shrunk to fit a legal sheet and is completely unreadable.?ÿ One Register of Deeds was literally cutting the original into legal size segments, putting page numbers on them and recording them for an exorbitant fee.?ÿ Another has several flat storage units with maybe 150 or more simply tossed on top of each other in a single drawer.?ÿ Digging through them to find the ones you need is a killer, especially as the bottom drawer is at floor level.?ÿ You have to handle them over and over, doing damage for the long term.?ÿ The ROD is an elected office so no one has the authority to tell them how to do or not do their job.?ÿ As long as it is considered fit for recording and they put it somewhere inside the vault, all is good with the world.?ÿ Except for those of us who need it.
The standard indexing is that a survey is listed along with the deeds, mortgages, easements, death certificates, oil an gas type documents and on and on.?ÿ But, say you are working in a block with 32 lots and each lot has it's own pages of indexing that goes back through three big books of indexes.?ÿ So to find that a survey was recorded for any of the 32 lots, you will need to skim the first column in their index books looking for the word SURVEY (handwritten BTW in cursive).?ÿ To check all lots and all indexes may require thumbing through a few hundred pages while scanning that first column.?ÿ Then, if you find you need help from surveys in adjoining blocks, well, Lord help you.?ÿ Plus, recording the surveys only started about 70 years ago.?ÿ Most of the time you find the need to go back much farther.?ÿ That's where our files are vital.?ÿ In addition to the to the surveys we also have about 15 other sources of information that may be of aid to your survey project.?ÿ We have State highway plan sets going back to the late 1920's when the State system came into being.?ÿ We have bridge plans out the wazoo.?ÿ We have railroad strip maps for all the existing and former railroad lines passing through the county, including the station maps.?ÿ We have two sets of card files that are section corner records assembled by the County Engineer/Survey over the decades long before any Statewide statute demanding such things.?ÿ We have the Field Notes from the 1865 government surveys?ÿ We have the road records for county roads.
105 counties and it seems no two handle things exactly the same.?ÿ I was helping another surveyor from 200 miles away a couple of weeks ago who was searching for the creation of a road in 1872.?ÿ He needed Commissioners Journal "C".?ÿ I finally found it for him as it had been relocated from where it had been as far back as I can remember.?ÿ Getting to it involves a key that is kept by the County Clerk who escorts you to where you think it is going to be and then stands by impatiently wanting to get back to her office but can't until you are done.?ÿ Had another surveyor call me early this week in need of help in a nearby county.?ÿ He needed highway right of way information to a State Highway adjoining the tract he "had" to survey the following day.?ÿ The official computer generated request to the DOT had not been received after four weeks since it went in.?ÿ He told me they had found a survey I had performed directly across the highway about 15 years ago and had shown the ins and outs of the right of way on that side.?ÿ Could I help him out.?ÿ About 30 minutes later I had recovered my notes that are in storage over two miles from my office.?ÿ Those included my handwritten notes from looking at the highway plans that are on file in that county.?ÿ Then told him where he needed to look to get his answers.?ÿ I know he did a slap to the forehead.?ÿ In recent years he had developed the habit of making the request of the DOT and not looking in the files two feet from where he had been doing research.?ÿ
You are in the land of milk and honey.?ÿ Rest o' us jist gits wut we gits.
You are in the land of milk and honey.?ÿ Rest o' us jist gits wut we gits.
Must be all of those pesky taxes that we pay
@edward-reading I used the GIS at Cambria. A lot of surveys plus Jim Conkright did some in the mid 1980s, we have the files. He died soon after.?ÿ
Fresno County has one too.
Alaska has all the recorded surveys and deeds available on line for free and no income tax, and depending where you live, no sales tax, and no property tax.?ÿ
Alaska has all the recorded surveys and deeds available on line for free and no income tax, and depending where you live, no sales tax, and no property tax.?ÿ
It must be nice having all of that "free" oil money.
I (my company) submitted a map to a couple of CA's northern counties under 8762(b)(4) and 2 county surveyor said it was unnecessary. We had to explain the statute to him. Can we start with educating jurisdictions? Spoke to a local surveyor in that county who stated he has done 1,000s of surveys and never filed based on 8762(b)(4). He said "do you know many records of surveys I would have had to do? My clients won't pay for that." So obviously that jurisdiction does not know the statutes and does not enforce them.
I talked with a former CA surveyor who told me they can do a corner record in that state instead of full-blown ROS. So are guys just recording a ton of corner records instead?
Also, I'm assuming CA abuses the hell out of recording fees and uses the money on non-development services stuff so in that regard I don't know if I'd fault surveyors for looking out for their clients this way...
Corner records can be filed if there aren't any ROS triggers in play (i.e. 8762). People like to point at 8765(d), which states a ROS is not required if (among other things):
When the survey is a retracement of lines shown on a subdivision map, official map,
or a record of survey, where no material discrepancies with those records are found and
sufficient monumentation is found to establish the precise location of property corners thereon,
provided that a corner record is filed for any property corners which are set or reset or found to
be of a different character than indicated by prior records. For purposes of this subdivision, a
“material discrepancy” is limited to a material discrepancy in the position of points or lines, or in
dimensions.
A lot of the time, nothing will be filed. For records of survey folks will argue about ROS triggers (in particular material evidence/discrepancy) and cost... For corner records the good 'ol I didn't set anything so I don't need to file a corner record.
People trying to argue against 8762(b)(4) and (5) are hilarious, though. Is the line you're establishing/re-establishing/retracing and/or monumenting shown elsewhere on a subdivision map, official map, or record of survey? No? Then file a ROS, dammit. But again: people will argue I didn't set anything so I don't need to file a ROS.
