This is so easy a cave man can do it.
Time to do the field work X?ÿcrew rate
Time to draft it X your drafting rate
Time for research and review X your billing rate
?ÿIf you are going to have field crew rates and drafting rates then dammit you have to use those rates and you have to be true to the cost of doing the job & $0.40 a foot doesn't cut it and neither does $1.00 a foot.
And don't forget travel costs. The job begins and ends at your door.
Ok I will give an example of how surveying by the linear foot works out.
?ÿ
I did a 17 acre job earlier this year. This was on steep nasty terrain with ~500 foot of elevation difference from top to bottom.
With an hourly rate of $130 an hour for field crew (which is just me) for 20 hours of field work we are at $2600
Four hours drafting at $75 an hour for $300
Two hours research and review at $50 an hour we are at $100
This comes out to $3000 tack on my $400 per lot subdivision fee we are at $3400
I billed out $4300 on this job.?ÿ
Mind you the rates I am using are competitive in the local market and I am not doing work cheap, are their other surveyors more expensive than me? Of course but most are cheaper. Now I will say this I do not bill for mileage, I do however write it off per the advise of my accountant. Also the further a job is away the more I add into the cost.
You gave me squat. Apparently you are the one who does not understand lineal foot pricing.?ÿ
You showed an hourly billing rate X the time it took to do the job which is what I am advocating. Plus $900 for profit, good for you.
You da man!
I do not agree with your accountant about not charging for travel time. You write off fuel expenses, but not travel time.
And yes I am uncompromising on this because I have seen so many surveyors who do not charge for items that they should and I have seen so many surveyors use all kinds of crazy excuses to justify their low prices. I have even had surveyors justify prices of less than half market rate as "because that is all they were willing to pay". Etc etc etc.
Once again you showed me an hourly billing rate NOT a lineal foot basis for prices. I am fine with hourly billing rates so long as you're true to them. However, a surveyor cannot use hourly billing rates and per foot pricing interchangeably without lying.
You use one or the other but not both.
Serious question: Do you know what lineal foot pricing is?
?ÿ
"By and large surveyors are some of the most piss poor businessmen to ever walk the earth."
?ÿ
Truer words have never been said!!
I think what Hollandbriscoe was showing in his math is that using his hourly rates and time estimates to complete the job would have yielded at fee of $3,400 for the job.?ÿ Alternatively using his per foot pricing he actually charged the Client $4,300, $900 more than he would have using the hourly model.
I've never used a lineal foot method of pricing and until this discussion I honestly never knew it was a thing.?ÿ Marking and cutting line isn't a typical thing I'm asked to do though so I'm guessing that's why that pricing model isn't very prevalent here.?ÿ I typically look a potential job from a 30,000 foot level and decide what I think it's worth.?ÿ Things like project deadline, property value, boundary complexity, location, ect. all play into this worth.?ÿ Then I gut check that number against a rough per/acre unit cost analysis and an hourly rate analysis.?ÿ For me, my original "worth" number needs to be equal to or greater than either gut checks.?ÿ
I've always worked in multi-discipline firms like I think Moe's low ball competitor is.?ÿ At my last job with a rather large multi-state firm I was routinely asked to be the low cost leader on large scale design projects.?ÿ We were 95% private sector so it usually worked although it was always interesting at the quarterly P&L review meetings...the people on the top floor always seemed to forget the fee cuts on the Survey phase of the contract when it came time to review department profitability.?ÿ
I've not adopted that business model now at my own gig even though it is again a multi-discipline shop.?ÿ Interestingly of the 3 services we offer Survey generates ~65% of the overall firm top line sales.?ÿ I?ÿwon't speculate as to which philosophy is better but I do know that consistently being asked?ÿto undervalue your specific service to help advance or promote another service can suck the soul right out of you.?ÿ
I stake line, but I don't charge a per foot price. I have sat down and figured out that it was close to $1 per foot twenty years ago. Today I would expect it would be about the same. I can just do more of it as a one man crew.
?ÿ
I think what Hollandbriscoe was showing in his math is that using his hourly rates and time estimates to complete the job would have yielded at fee of $3,400 for the job.?ÿ Alternatively using his per foot pricing he actually charged the Client $4,300, $900 more than he would have using the hourly model.
?ÿ
Cameron that is correct, I realized more profit by charging per linear foot that I would have had I gone with an hourly rate. Mind you I am not staking line when I do this, that is an extra charge.
I only give a price for small acerage buyer, seller, refinance, reverse mortgage, etc.
All other surveys of farms, ranches, estates and any large or sizeable boundary survey will get a number they should budget for the work.
I do no actual work until I have received some formal authorization to proceed with the work and approval to pay for the survey fee when finished.
My fees are based upon dozens of factors that only apply to each certain property being ask of.
I love surveying with a passion and I only perform surveys to make money.
I will enjoy every minute of every day out there no matter the circumstances.
When there is no profit to be made, I do not take the job.
I will do the next project on the list that I am going to make money.
0.02
My fees are based on the client and the market.?ÿ I take into account my per foot base, my hourly rate, the type of client, the market value, my current work load, and other factors that may influence my fee at that time.?ÿ For instance did a job the other day that I quoted two years ago for $750, but when the client called two weeks ago to have the job completed I quoted $1250, he said you told me $750 two years ago.?ÿ I said yes that was then and this is now.
But PROFIT is not the only reason I'll take a job.?ÿ I have done surveys for clients I knew couldn't afford the typical cost of the survey but had a real concern, usually a little old lady whose neighbor has caused some issue.?ÿ And yes it has cost me a few times.?ÿ But a few bucks and their gratitude I received for helping them out when no other would was worth it.?ÿ But I'm a sucker for little old ladies.
?ÿ
I've always worked in multi-discipline firms like I think Moe's low ball competitor is.?ÿ At my last job with a rather large multi-state firm, I was routinely asked to be the low-cost leader on large scale design projects.?ÿ We were 95% private sector so it usually worked although it was always interesting at the quarterly P&L review meetings...the people on the top floor always seemed to forget the fee cuts on the Survey phase of the contract when it came time to review department profitability.?ÿ
I've not adopted that business model now at my own gig even though it is again a multi-discipline shop.?ÿ Interestingly of the 3 services we offer Survey generates ~65% of the overall firm top line sales.?ÿ I?ÿwon't speculate as to which philosophy is better but I do know that consistently being asked?ÿto undervalue your specific service to help advance or promote another service can suck the soul right out of you.?ÿ
?ÿ
Therein lies the rub with attracting new talent. We can't attract new talent without a decent starting salary and a decent starting salary cannot be had when we are always the profession that gets undermined. That is the crux of our profession really and the question we all have to answer. "When are we going to stand up for our selves and charge appropriate fees in order to perpetuate the profession?" Engineers see us as a necessary?ÿevil and based on that comment, undermine the very fabric of a profitable department, which in turn makes it that much harder to invest or reinvest in technology, people, advances in the profession, etc. I have seen it first hand, and I am by no means perfect in taking the stand all of the time for a multitude of reasons, but we are fundamentally and financially not sound as a whole and in order for that to change we at some point need to say enough is enough.
?ÿ
0.02'
?ÿ
?ÿ
Therein lies the rub with attracting new talent. We can't attract new talent without a decent starting salary and a decent starting salary cannot be had when we are always the profession that gets undermined. That is the crux of our profession really and the question we all have to answer. "When are we going to stand up for our selves and charge appropriate fees in order to perpetuate the profession?" Engineers see us as a necessary?ÿevil and based on that comment, undermine the very fabric of a profitable department, which in turn makes it that much harder to invest or reinvest in technology, people, advances in the profession, etc. I have seen it first hand, and I am by no means perfect in taking the stand all of the time for a multitude of reasons, but we are fundamentally and financially not sound as a whole and in order for that to change we at some point need to say enough is enough.
?ÿ
Admittedly the bulk of my time running the Survey group in that larger multi-state multi-discipline firm was leading up to and through the '08 recession.?ÿ The subordinance of the Survey group to the Engineering group was by design and completely intentional and while it was what it was, I don't believe it was setup?ÿwith any malice towards or goal to undermine the Survey profession by the Engineers.?ÿ In the time leading up to the recession we were the Western?ÿRegion design?ÿfirm for the country's largest retailer expansion program.?ÿ The company could not afford to not be in control of such a pivotal service as Survey.?ÿ So for a long time the Survey group's primary task was to support that effort and for a long time they flourished.?ÿ Was there some harbored resentment by some of the more seasoned among the group??ÿ Yes, there certainly was.?ÿ I didn't understand it at the time and?ÿI'm not sure I?ÿfully do now.?ÿ It was successful and profitable for?ÿeveryone.?ÿ?ÿIf you choose to be even partially on the design/construction side of the Survey ledger you're working for or with an Engineer one way or the other, whether that Engineer be?ÿunder the same umbrella as you or not.?ÿ Some of the Surveyors felt looked down upon by their Engineer counterparts but when I look back on it I think they did that to themselves.?ÿ An engineer would walk down with some request that the Senior Surveyor would scoff at as being completely unreasonable and undoable?ÿleading to?ÿa fight?ÿof some kind and both walking away butthurt.?ÿ I took those opportunities as challenges because I've always been a highly competitive person.?ÿ I would buckle down and complete said unreasonable and undoable tasks and in doing so gained respect and appreciation from the Engineers.?ÿ I was not a necessary evil that had to be confronted every time something needed doing, I was an asset that could help the entire team look like a hero to the Client.?ÿ I believe it was that approach that propelled me through my time there.
The loss leader?ÿtactic didn't happen until the recession.?ÿ Did it suck??ÿ YES!?ÿ Did it suck more than not being able to put food on my young family's table??ÿ NO.?ÿ That firm dwindled from ~175 strong?ÿto about 40?ÿfrom 2008?ÿto 2012.?ÿ At the time with the economy being what it was and the fierce competition?ÿfor large?ÿmulti-discipline project pursuits I could see the merit?ÿin cutting $10k?ÿoff a $20k Survey scope in order to land a $100k contract.?ÿ The competitor in me HATED it but I accepted?ÿit as a function of the times, took my lumps and had the?ÿhard meetings?ÿto defend my numbers on those jobs.?ÿ?ÿI also took it as an opportunity to become?ÿmore than just a support group reliant on being fed internal work.?ÿ I went out and won my own work with my own numbers and ultimately my rag tag?ÿgroup of Surveyors carried what was left of the company through those?ÿdays.?ÿ
This broad reaching topic is so hard to address in a meaningful way on this forum because the people that are here and participate seem to all be the ones that get it.?ÿ They may not all completely agree on the specifics of how to achieve "it" but they're all at least pointing in the same direction.?ÿ It is my?ÿopinion however that we are in as much control over?ÿhow we are perceived and how we're valued within our respective communities as our low balling, non-phone answering, no reply emailing, take forever to finish, grumpy competitors are.?ÿ We can?ÿtry to use the traits of our competition to our advantage.?ÿ This is a quote from one of my?ÿregular Engineer Clients?ÿfrom an email?ÿexchange?ÿwe were having recently about this very topic: "It seems like 2/3 or more of the surveyors I know don??t respond to emails or calls and are generally grumpy...I don??t look down on surveyors.?ÿ I try not to look down on people that are unresponsive in a professional capacity, regardless of their profession, but it??s hard!"?ÿ When he gets a project?ÿwhere he?ÿcan choose his?ÿSurveyor it's me.?ÿ When he has to get proposals from several Surveyors?ÿI'm never the lowest number but he pounds the table for me.?ÿ Sometimes he wins sometimes he doesn't.?ÿ He usually wins the 2nd?ÿtime with that Client though.?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ
I was contacted about surveying 3 residences (not adjoining but in the same neighborhood). I have a price already set for those types of surveys: between 8 & 900.?ÿ I thought , she's going bulk with three so I'll give her a little break and go in at 780 each. I'm a nice guy.?ÿ SHe calls back a couple days before I started and asked, "Why so much? I'm in Raliegh (Somewhere in a Carolina) and the going rate here is half that price."
?ÿ
She actually asked how I justify being double. I had to chuckle and ask why are those guys half-price??ÿ I simply explained that my rate is X and that's what the market will bear. I got the jobs but one fell through because of some reason or another. She said she'd replace that one with a different one. I'm thinking I might have a new long term client.
?ÿ
I'm just trying to get money to buy all the nice things I want. I'm doing pretty good but I'm tired all the time.
From the immortal words of Dan Beardslee:
if your clients aren't complaining, you're not charging enough
I'm just trying to get money to buy all the nice things I want. I'm doing pretty good but I'm tired all the time.
?ÿ
Thank you for that response as I believe it is indicative of many situations surveyors and also of design firms find themselves these days.
That being said, that part concerning surveyors being there to support the engineers by design is true and the part that I think is the issue with some of the engineers/surveyors relationships is that 'subservient' mentality, whether real or perceived, it exists both socially and structurally (business structure). I also think that engineers need us a lot more than we need them. It's nice to work for engineers that appreciate the work and fully understand the extent of what a field crew goes through to gather the necessary information. Those engineers are the minority. The majority of engineers graduating these days have not swung a hammer enough to even get a callouse on their hands let alone a blister and surveying is still a very blue collar profession and everything that implies.
As much as we stomp and rave about it having to be a profession, it is also a trade/craft/ whatever you classify it as. Until we structure a company or a contract to benefit the surveyors and charge a real fee that is able to account for all of the equipment, labor and future investment needed to stay relevant and require more from our field personnel, project managers in the sense of education, presentation, training, and communication we are where we are.
I am attempting to make those changes now, and it is taking longer than expected and I don't suspect it will be any time soon considering the market condition and the perception of the price to survey. At some point, we are going to have to get on our high horse and charge what it takes, verify our business math frequently, and account for the price to hire and go through some of the younger generation's new hires.
?ÿ
0.02'
The loss leader?ÿtactic didn't happen until the recession.?ÿ Did it suck??ÿ YES!?ÿ Did it suck more than not being able to put food on my young family's table??ÿ NO.?ÿ That firm dwindled from ~175 strong?ÿto about 40?ÿfrom 2008?ÿto 2012.?ÿ At the time with the economy being what it was and the fierce competition?ÿfor large?ÿmulti-discipline project pursuits I could see the merit?ÿin cutting $10k?ÿoff a $20k Survey scope in order to land a $100k contract.?ÿ The competitor in me HATED it but I accepted?ÿit as a function of the times, took my lumps and had the?ÿhard meetings?ÿto defend my numbers on those jobs.?ÿ?ÿI also took it as an opportunity to become?ÿmore than just a support group reliant on being fed internal work.?ÿ I went out and won my own work with my own numbers and ultimately my rag tag?ÿgroup of Surveyors carried what was left of the company through those?ÿdays.?ÿ
If $10k needs to be cut from a $100k proposal "fair" would be everybody takes a 10% haircut.?ÿ ?ÿCutting it all off one department while another stays whole is disrespectful. It's not that there needs to be trimming, its in how it's done.?ÿ?ÿ
