With the change of the NCEES Fundamentals of Surveying Exam to 6 hours in 2014 it becomes neccessary for states to change laws that require an 8 hour exam. Alternatively states could require a 2 hour state specific exam to be added to the new 6 hour Fundamentals of Surveying Exam similar to the 2 hour state specific added to the Principles of Surveying exam.
I am suggesting this simple expedient. All state boards could accept a straightforward 2 hour field practices exam. After completing and passing the 6 hours FS exam, the applicant must take a 2 hour field practices exam. The requirements of this exam to be:
The applicant must set up a tripod over a ground point utilizing a plumb bob, an optical plummet and a laser plummet. The applicant to set up three sights on ground points, at least one being with a tripod and at least one with a bipod. The applicant must occupy one point and backsighting another observe 2 sets of foresight angles, 2D & 2R, recording all observations manually on paper, showing all applicable steps. The applicant to use a hand tape and a folding rule to measure HI & HRs in feet and meters, it is suggested that neither tool be dual reading. The applicant to use an EDM to measure slope distances F&R to the 3 points in meters. The applicant to manually convert the slope observations to horizontal distances in International feet and US survey feet. The applicant to use the applicable state foot to manually calculate coordinates and elevations. A handheld calculator may be used with minimum use of routines other than */+-= and the basic geometeric functions. All steps to be shown on paper. The applicant to properly return each instrument to appropriate storage container.
The test is to be given by 2 professional land surveyors licensed in the state of application. Neither of said test givers/observers to be a relative of said applicant by blood or marriage. At least one PLS to have never been a coworker, classmate, employer, employee, mentor or instructor of the applicant. Each page of said test to be signed and dated by all 3 individuals. The pro forma cover sheet to be signed and sealed by both professionals. Each of the three to keep a complete copy of this test until the applicant has succesfully completed the PLS portion of licensure. The test to include an oath in line with that used in the PLSS field notes.
After consideration of the actual time required for the above test, additional topics could be corrections of raw EDM measurements to existing conditions or the proper use an a ferrous metal locator and a shovel, however the extra work is probably not neccessary.
If this test is passed within 1 year of passing the FS exam then the date of the FS exam, or graduation as required by statute, shall be the applicable SIT start date. The test may only be taken once in any 30 calendar day period. If not passed within 1 year of the FS or graduation then the date of passing this second test will be applicable to the SIT start date. This test could easily be made a part of state survey society conventions. Alternatively said test could be taken prior to the FS exam by an an active student with a least 75% of required credits, or by an experience only applicant with 100% of time. The test results to be included with the SIT application. It is not intended that the board review said work, merely that the board have a certified record that the work has been satisfactorily completed.
This exact type of field test does not fit as well into the scope of the engineering fundamentals. The state could accept as an alternative the taking and passing of a 3 credit engineering course beyond the number required for graduation. The course to have a required minimum 2 hour final exam. The course may be taken prior to graduation or within a time certain of passing the FE or graduation. This is in line with the goal to require more than a BS for consideration as a PE. If applicable this extra course may be counted to any additional educational requirement for the PE.
As an aside, understanding that BS programs vary in requirements from 120 to 142+ credits, the minimum consideration for the PE might be satisfied with an MS in Engineering or a second Engineering BS, plus 10 graduate credits or 150 credits minimum, with at least half of those beyond the first received BS being graduate level work.
Lawrence Paul Lopresti, PE, PLS
What do you think of the idea?
Paul,
You want someone to spend two hours setting up the total station, set up a back site, then take a side shot? In Texas when you apply to take the Exam you fill out your Professional Surveying Experience, this would be covered in that section.
Do you think we should also make the test taker go to the courthouse and research a deed?
Scott
> Paul,
>
> You want someone to spend two hours setting up the total station, set up a back site, then take a side shot? In Texas when you apply to take the Exam you fill out your Professional Surveying Experience, this would be covered in that section.
>
> Do you think we should also make the test taker go to the courthouse and research a deed?
>
> Scott
Why not? I wonder how many would be eliminated beforehand. Particularly those who claim to have topoed paved and Geodetic'd.
When I went to take my exam, there was a gentlemen who showed up with a tool belt on in addition to all his books. The individual was from Europe and was under the assumption that there would be a practical portion of the exam. When he told me that, I thought to myself how novel the concept was.
Ralph
> > Paul,
> >
> > You want someone to spend two hours setting up the total station, set up a back site, then take a side shot? In Texas when you apply to take the Exam you fill out your Professional Surveying Experience, this would be covered in that section.
> >
> > Do you think we should also make the test taker go to the courthouse and research a deed?
> >
> > Scott
>
> Why not? I wonder how many would be eliminated beforehand. Particularly those who claim to have topoed paved and Geodetic'd.
> When I went to take my exam, there was a gentlemen who showed up with a tool belt on in addition to all his books. The individual was from Europe and was under the assumption that there would be a practical portion of the exam. When he told me that, I thought to myself how novel the concept was.
>
> Ralph
The practical portion of the exam is the 2 years you spend as a SIT.
Scott
>
> The practical portion of the exam is the 2 years you spend as a SIT.
>
> Scott
I think you should be able to prove you know how to properly operate in the field as part of the FS exam. Everything from using a plumb bob, slope taping,turning angles, first aid, safety etc.
Ralph
This plan would only intimidate those who are exaggerating their field experience. Everyone else would view this as a waste of time.
> I think you should be able to prove you know how to properly operate in the field as part of the FS exam. Everything from using a plumb bob, slope taping,turning angles, first aid, safety etc.
>
> Ralph
Ralph,
There is just not enough time during the exam to test for everything, that is why you spend 2 years as a SIT that is where you spend your time setting up a tripod, well really you learn that before you take the SIT exam
I feel it is more important to know Senior/Junior rights, The court case laws, which corners to hold, your states regulation and standards, land laws, prescriptive rights, easements, follow in the footsteps, calls and conflicts, water boundaries.
If I ever have to go to court I want to show the judge my survey knowledge, not my CPR skills
Paul,
What did you get first your PE or PLS?
The Point Of My Proposal Is...
...that all laws call for an 8 hour exam. In 2014 NCEES will only administer a 6 hour exam.
I am proposing a new 2 hour practical to bring the total back to 8.
The alternative is to change the laws in 50 plus jurisdictions.
Paul in PA
The Point Of My Proposal Is...
> ...that all laws call for an 8 hour exam. In 2014 NCEES will only administer a 6 hour exam.
>
> I am proposing a new 2 hour practical to bring the total back to 8.
>
> The alternative is to change the laws in 50 plus jurisdictions.
>
> Paul in PA
Paul,
There are a lot better options then setting up a tripod for two hours. I would just have another two hour analytical examination or more legal questions, or every state board can tell NCEES we want an 8 hour exam, make an 8 hour exam not 6 hours, or we will find another company to adm the exam.
Scott
PE First, PLS Much Later
I first became a PE in PA. A few years later I applied for a PE in NJ by comity. I received a letter from the NJ State Board stating that the law required I take a test. I thought, "Well OK I'll schedule that test". However, included in that letter was a list of questions I had to reply to. It took me a few minutes to figure out that that was the required test. The State Board was complying with the letter of the law.
When I took the fundamentals, it took me about 6 hours total to answer all the questions and recheck my answers. I think the new 6 hour test will weed out those that do not have a thorough understanding of the basics. You know it or you don't. No sitting around a few hours trying to figure it out.
Paul in PA
Scott ?
All jurisdiction boards voted to accept the change to a 6 hour exam. The boards however are not the state legislatures, they cannot change the laws.
Paul in PA
> I feel it is more important to know Senior/Junior rights, The court case laws, which corners to hold, your states regulation and standards, land laws, prescriptive rights, easements, follow in the footsteps, calls and conflicts, water boundaries.
>
> If I ever have to go to court I want to show the judge my survey knowledge, not my CPR skills
:good: :good:
Amen.
Yes, the technical part of surveying (measuring) is important, however, the most important part is learning to become a professional problem solver, not a professional measurer. That stuff is the work of a TECHNICIAN, not a professional.
If you want to have a practical portion of the FS exam, how about performing a series of retracements using nothing but the tools that were available 100 years ago, maybe that, at least could drive home the importance of knowing the difference between precision and accuracy.
The quicker we eliminate this incorrect assumption that if one can turn angles correctly, apply the corrections, covert blah, blah, blah on a basic calulator (why not a slide rule) then one is qualified to hold a professional license, the sooner our profession will return to being the once honorable profession is used to be.
ENOUGH IS ENOUGH!! I am not a professional measurer, I am a professional land surveyor.
> I'm all for it. There is a practical test for dentistry, and even for hair-dressing.
> I think it could be administered by those that have to sign for experience requirements, or a panel of surveyors who hate every new technology and young people in general (just kidding).
>
> All kidding aside. A practical component would be a good idea.
Yes, if the practical portion was on the correct material.
Oh, and if you want a sad, real world comparison to dentistry and hair-dressing, check to see if their licensing boards are filled with people who do not hold that license.
Scott, If You Take 2 Hours To Do What You Say, You Fail
There is note taking, calculation and more involved. You get 2 hours start to finish, which is why I included returning the equipment to cases. Turning 2D2R is not just a sideshot. Doing the calculations on paper shows an understanding of the basics. That 2, 3 or 4 years as an SIT is generally just button pushing.
Paul in PA
Research should be reserved for the PLS exam, not the SIT / FLS. Learn to measure, then learn to survey.
Please do not make the new surveyors learn the old ways. In 2002/2003 I had to memorize the coefficient for the expansion of steel as part of the WIT PLS program. The last time I used a steel tape in the real world (reel world) was pre 2000. It is important to know where the errors originated, but it is unnecessary to make anybody relive the methods. (Why not send guys out with chains and compasses?)
The SIT / FLS really does not give you anything other than the ability to SIT for the PLS exam and ask for a raise.
> Research should be reserved for the PLS exam, not the SIT / FLS. Learn to measure, then learn to survey.
>
> Please do not make the new surveyors learn the old ways. In 2002/2003 I had to memorize the coefficient for the expansion of steel as part of the WIT PLS program. The last time I used a steel tape in the real world (reel world) was pre 2000. It is important to know where the errors originated, but it is unnecessary to make anybody relive the methods. (Why not send guys out with chains and compasses?)
>
> The SIT / FLS really does not give you anything other than the ability to SIT for the PLS exam and ask for a raise.
:good: :good:
There seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding of what the FS exam entails.
> This plan would only intimidate those who are exaggerating their field experience. Everyone else would view this as a waste of time.
Best answer yet, most logical.
> Research should be reserved for the PLS exam, not the SIT / FLS. Learn to measure, then learn to survey.
>
> Please do not make the new surveyors learn the old ways. In 2002/2003 I had to memorize the coefficient for the expansion of steel as part of the WIT PLS program. The last time I used a steel tape in the real world (reel world) was pre 2000. It is important to know where the errors originated, but it is unnecessary to make anybody relive the methods. (Why not send guys out with chains and compasses?)
>
> The SIT / FLS really does not give you anything other than the ability to SIT for the PLS exam and ask for a raise.
I used a steel tape every time I measure a house, do I have a tension gauge and record the temperature no I do not, but I know how to do it.
Scott
:good: