One of the least enjoyable (and most liability extending) work orders I get from one of my utility company clients is "property pin replacements".?ÿ You know, where the placing contractor digs up a mess and destroys someone's pins...they throw a fit and call the co-op...the co-op calls me; I replace the destroyed pins and ultimately back-charge the placing?ÿcontractor for my time.
This type of work order just kind of naturally evolved and the majority of them go smoothly.?ÿ In a perfect world I would have been on the site prior to the placing contractor and already have a good location on?ÿeverything.?ÿ A lot of times I even have a?ÿgood record of the very pin?ÿ (or pins) that have been destroyed.?ÿ But that's not always the case....
I don't care how sure I am about where the replacement?ÿpin belongs the "owner" is never quite sure about it.?ÿ I get a lot of frowns and things like "...I don't know..." as they look at the pin, him haw and crane their neck like a hound listening to a Madonna song.?ÿ?ÿ
I've been fortunate enough to not get myself into any law suits with this practice, but I still don't like doing them.
The other day I went out on one where I had not only shot the pins during my recent "utility work" survey,?ÿ I had originally set them about 19 years ago.?ÿ The property owner met me when I got out there and fussed about as I worked.?ÿ When I was done he looked at the pin and looked down his fence and shook his head...he was sure it wasn't quite?ÿin the right place; I assured him it was (he wasn't the owner 19 years ago).?ÿ He had to run to his truck and pull out a copy of all the paperwork he received when he bought the place 17 years ago.?ÿ He had a copy of the "old" survey and wanted me to see it and make sure everything was copasetic.?ÿ His reduced copy was almost illegible.?ÿ
I pulled out my original full size and showed it to him. "Where did you get this?" he asked.
"I've kept it?ÿmy the file since I set the pins 19 years ago."
"Oh...you were the surveyor back then too?"
"Yup"
"I guess it looks right then." he said.?ÿ I told him I thought so also. ??ÿ
Lucky he didnt ask why you set it wrong twice?
One major factor as to why the setting of pincusions is so entirely, fundamentally and legally WRONG: - is BECAUSE landowners, by the very nature of being a U.S. Citizen, are given the right to own property unlike much of the world, and when they take ownership of that property, and when they follow the rules of getting their property surveyed - the good faith method of getting duly defined on the ground?ÿ with certified, professional monuments, with the surveyors legal license number stamped on the cap - they get real funny about neighbors and other surveyors coming along and "disagreeing" by some trivial factor of measurement.?ÿ
every landowner in America, in their right mind, will HATE it when some "better", "superior", "more informed", surveyor comes along and sets a pincusion over the matter of precision.?ÿ
It is the sacred American right to ownership of property as defined by surveyors - who take official numbers on a piece of paper and transform them to the ground with their state-granted license - and as the only profession allowed to do this - that should be the most definitive reason why surveyors should not set pincusions over the matter of precision.?ÿ
@warren-ward-pls-co-ok that is both eloquent and perceptive.
(and not unlike us over here in Mexico)
I ran the surveying department of an engineering company for 15+ years.?ÿ We got to reset a LOT of pins destroyed/disturbed due to utility construction, usually water lines within the right of way of roads.?ÿ We made it a standard practice to locate pins from the traverse line, set offsets in the pavement near the pins, record the offset distances?ÿand then locate the offsets.?ÿ If a pin gets knocked out it is simple to "two tape" off the offset nails and reset the pin.?ÿ I WILL NOT guarantee the pin is in the correct location because I did not survey the entire property, but I WILL guarantee it is in the location before construction.
Andy
One major factor as to why the setting of pincusions is so entirely, fundamentally and legally WRONG: - is BECAUSE landowners, by the very nature of being a U.S. Citizen, are given the right to own property unlike much of the world, and when they take ownership of that property, and when they follow the rules of getting their property surveyed - the good faith method of getting duly defined on the ground?ÿ with certified, professional monuments, with the surveyors legal license number stamped on the cap - they get real funny about neighbors and other surveyors coming along and "disagreeing" by some trivial factor of measurement.?ÿ
every landowner in America, in their right mind, will HATE it when some "better", "superior", "more informed", surveyor comes along and sets a pincusion over the matter of precision.?ÿ
It is the sacred American right to ownership of property as defined by surveyors - who take official numbers on a piece of paper and transform them to the ground with their state-granted license - and as the only profession allowed to do this - that should be the most definitive reason why surveyors should not set pincusions over the matter of precision.?ÿ
What do you mean by "much of the world"? Almost every country in the world grants their citizens the right to own land, even North Korea and Cuba. The only country that I know of that doesn't is Nigeria.
The U.S. ranks 41st for the percentage of the population that own their own home.
?ÿ
All of you have spoken of the things I dislike about this task.?ÿ
Of course I would prefer to complete an entire investigative boundary to determine the location of a missing pin, but the simple fact is (barring an actual recently recorded position) the pin will never be exactly located in the same place as the original.?ÿ Close; I won't set one unless I'm pretty sure....and within our minimum standards for positional accuracy, but most of these retracements are without the benefit of even knowing the identity of the original surveyor.
And it's not like I'm fighting a budget.?ÿ I charge hourly and there is really no maximum amount of time I could spend.?ÿ But I have found the further you expand your search (records and field) the more entangled the whole mess can get.?ÿ The worst feeling in the world is?ÿseeing the original pin twisted, bent and?ÿlaying on the ground next to?ÿthe fresh trench that disturbed it; only to find where I think the replacement should go is a foot or so outside of the trench line and shouldn't have been hit in the first place.?ÿ
Most of these go fairly smooth and I only get one or two every couple of months.?ÿ I never walk away satisfied.?ÿ There is always the nagging reality that a replacement is never as good as the original.
I also prepare a drawing of record showing what I did and what I used to determine the corner location.?ÿ But I keep this to myself for my own use.?ÿ I?ÿdon't provide the property owner a copy.?ÿ But since the pin bears a cap with my number affixed I can provide any inquisitive party a record of how and why the pin was reset.
A few months ago I actually found the pin the property owner?ÿthought was destroyed.?ÿ It was in place a few feet from the trench line?ÿand fit the surrounding pins reasonably well.?ÿ What was destroyed was a t-post driven in the ground a few feet from the pin.?ÿ The property owner had relied upon his t-post since he had purchased the place and didn't particularly like the pin I found and verified.?ÿ I settled that one by stabbing his t-post back in the trench backfill where he had said it had been.?ÿ "There you go.." were the last words I spoke to him.
I will still never like this task.?ÿ It's always a lose-lose on my end.
?ÿ
?ÿ
What do you mean by "much of the world"? Almost every country in the world grants their citizens the right to own land, even North Korea and Cuba. The only country that I know of that doesn't is Nigeria.
The U.S. ranks 41st for the percentage of the population that own their own home.
?ÿ
?ÿI agree, mostly. It's complicated. Article 27 of the Mexican Constitution is of note:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_Mexico#Article_27
It must be understood that this was written immediately after a very difficult 9 1/2 year long revolution, millions died.
For me, replacing monuments that you have known location data for has to be the best job ever.
Your data is the witness and part of the record location when your survey has been recorded in public records.
No analysis, no prorating, no searching, no doubt.........as long as you can find your previous control.
Liability is limited to another surveyor having differing location data.
?ÿ
Your data is the witness and part of the record location when your survey has been recorded in public records.
This is the key of course. Otherwise future surveyors have no idea how you replaced it, and have to evaluate it on its position alone.?ÿ
?ÿ
?ÿ
?ÿ
[?ÿ .?ÿ .?ÿ .?ÿ ]
I also prepare a drawing of record showing what I did and what I used to determine the corner location.?ÿ But I keep this to myself for my own use.?ÿ I?ÿdon't provide the property owner a copy.?ÿ But since the pin bears a cap with my number affixed I can provide any inquisitive party a record of how and why the pin was reset.
[?ÿ .?ÿ .?ÿ .?ÿ ]
?ÿ
Must be differences in State statutes but in the States I work in you *have*?ÿ to file a record if you set a monument with your number on it, either a Corner Record (standard form) if you're resetting an obliterated corner, or a full blown Record of Survey (or Subdivision Map) if you're establishing a new corner not of record.?ÿ And you cannot set a monument without affixing your number to it.
Just wondering,?ÿ what happens to the record you've privately kept after you've passed on; how will the inquisitive party find it?
Edit:?ÿ Others beat me to it, see above.
Oklahoma isn't a "recording" state sadly.?ÿ And you're absolutely correct:?ÿ There?ÿwill be?ÿno way to perpetuate my records after I am no longer available.?ÿ There?ÿhave been a precious few surveyors that have passed their records on to others, but we generally just leave them up to our grieving widows.
I don't think this system is anywhere near optimum, but it is surely a reality.
?ÿ
