I would say no, disturbed monuments (curb-cuts) are just like a rebar/cap lying on the ground near a corner location, great to have found it but it's no longer valid.
Syntax is important, keep the words monument and corner separate.
It's best if the monument occupies the corner's position (or as a witness/reference monument such as a curb-cut), but as it moves because of local conditions the corner doesn't move with it.
The corner stays fixed in space where it was originally established with a whole bunch of exceptions of course.
Curb cuts are fairly visible monuments and I believe homeowners around here rely on them to mark the line much more than a steel pin and cap that is quickly covered over with grass. We know that the streets are moving but explaining that to the unwashed is a challenge and perhaps not even wholly correct. A landowner has a right to rely on a visible monument. It has bothered me for a long time.
ts still in the works but they discussed projects that lasted oh i may be wrong but 6 months that they were working on how to handle those. So a calculation for the epoch would be made at a certain time etc. I need to pull my notes out or see if they have posted the presentation online.
There's definitely a section on that issue in one of the "blueprint for 2022" documents...think it was the last one of the series. I think the big concern was geodetic levelling projects.
I'm overdue for another session of poking around for new presentations on the NGS site...
@rover83 Yeah i just asked the wife she said they have posted that one from FIG. Geodetic leveling is one that caught my attention for sure. I have just not had time to catch my breath. 2 crew chiefs out from different surgeries and me and the boss are juggling everything. I leave tomorrow for out of town. Setting pins on several different properties. Hoping i can get them all done but its mounting surveys so might be challenging. Most of the field work has been completed but some questions on a couple to determine the boundary. That and studying for the exam is killing me. I just wish we could find more people to join the team.
Our absent buddy Kent and I spent some time debating one of his surveys about which he had testified in a civil case. Kent had prepared an eloquent twenty-something page report that was submitted as evidence in the case.
Twenty something pages seemed overkill to me because the lot was merely about 100' by 150'. But Kent could be verbose discussing his own reasoning. Anyway, Kent had found the two rear pins of this lot (purported as original monuments due to Kent's investigative analysis of the rebar). But their positions didn't fit exactly with Kent's reconstruction of the lot.
As was Kent's habit the found monuments were determined to bear some positional error in relation to his reconstruction of the block. (BTW - This was always a point of friction 'twix Kent and myself. IMHO a found monument is exactly that. I was consistently critical of ol' McMillimeter for "tweaking" the position of found monuments; and while relying upon them somewhat for his survey he "adjusted" their location to better fit his reasoning AND the geometry of his survey.) Anyway Kent determined since the rear pins were at the top of a steep (but walkable) slope they had "shifted" a few tenths downhill due to the in-situ material. About half of the pages in his report were soil reports bolstering his claim the clay was unstable and a victim of gravity.
I was critical of his theory for a number of reasons. First, both rebars were still practically vertical and both had "shifted" exactly the same distance. Second, this had occurred in a geologically short period of time being around 50 years. And third, the slope was only around 15' from toe to top. Kent's own report didn't not any other appurtenance such as vegetative growth or fences that bore evidence of also sliding down the hill.
I realize conditions exist where this type of thing can happen. I am not a gambler, but I would bet a month's pay those pins really didn't slide down the hill as he purported. Amazingly his client prevailed with the help of Kent's report and testimony. To me this was just another example of the mental stability of some folks that live south of the Rio Roxo.
As always Kent and I maintained our mutual professional respect for one another...even though my opinion of his findings in this case included words like "crazy" and "bullsh*t". 😉
You remember well the man who never made a surveying error................in his opinion. If you can't impress them with your knowledge of the subject, then baffle them with B***S***.
Far be it from me to defend McMillimeter, but I have encountered a number of monuments that I KNOW are moving. One of the perks of GPS is that locations over time will reveal this phenomenon.
One recently is a Minor Subdivision plat I did with an expensive house on the land. That house I staked in 2002, it has 84 caissons to keep it in place, the monuments along the uphill side of main road had moved .7' downhill,,,,,still looking perfectly plumb. Over the years I return to a township corner Brass cap I set in 1979; 20 years of GPS locations show it moving about 1' per 10 years and it looks undisturbed.
As always Kent and I maintained our mutual professional respect for one another...even though my opinion of his findings in this case included words like "crazy" and "bullsh*t".
Can I use this on a PROFESSIONAL report I must soon make? I can give you credit..... at least to payden cash..... 🙂
Nate
The property owners have a legal right to rely upon monuments that appear to be undisturbed. That’s my understanding of current law and I will continue to rely upon that until it changes. The forces of natural have been moving objects since the beginning of time. Property owners should not have to enlist the services of a land surveyor to build a new fence because a global system of measurement says the monument no longer marks the corner.
Now you know why a CBL has to be remeasured periodically.
I set a 100 baseline with my invar base tape. In asphalt paved shoulder. Not fresh AC, but a nice dead end road so no traffic, car or truck. And mostly it’s good for checking new reflectors and temperature correction for steel takes. But when calibrating an EDM-reflector pair I remeasure the base with invar just to be sure.
Maybe it’s just me, but I get about 0.003’ different … sometimes.
Yesterday we found a PK nail I had set in 1997. It was in asphalt within a foot of where the surface changes to concrete. It was 31.66 feet from the bar that was at 31.67 feet in 1997. We ain't building watches. Perfect.
Yesterday we found a PK nail I had set in 1997. It was in asphalt within a foot of where the surface changes to concrete. It was 31.66 feet from the bar that was at 31.67 feet in 1997. We ain't building watches. Perfect.
Better check the plumb of your rod.
It was 31.66 feet from the bar that was at 31.67 feet in 1997.
Curb cuts are fairly visible monuments and I believe homeowners around here rely on them to mark the line much more than a steel pin and cap that is quickly covered over with grass. We know that the streets are moving but explaining that to the unwashed is a challenge and perhaps not even wholly correct. A landowner has a right to rely on a visible monument. It has bothered me for a long time.
So, what makes a monument "THE CORNER"?
What has more weight?
My whiz bang math and awesome measurements?
Ancient marks set at the time of subdivision and relied on ever since by the adjoining owners?
I know my answer.
The property owners have a legal right to rely upon monuments that appear to be undisturbed. That’s my understanding of current law and I will continue to rely upon that until it changes. The forces of natural have been moving objects since the beginning of time. Property owners should not have to enlist the services of a land surveyor to build a new fence because a global system of measurement says the monument no longer marks the corner.
That's my position as well. The slow and steady movement of monuments over time, whether due to plate motion or gradual local movement, rarely defeats the monuments themselves.
I'm not a geologist, and unless I have clear and convincing evidence that a monument has been disturbed (absent any other evidence to the contrary) that monument is going to hold.
I'll be reporting the record vs. measured observations on my survey in any case; if I cannot find any evidence of disturbance, the landowner is free to make any claim they want concerning earth movement.
I certainly wouldn't be discussing soil reports or core samples if I became embroiled in a dispute over the issue. I'd be staying in my lane and explaining my reasoning and methodology for locating the boundary on the ground, no more.
How about this situation. The street creeps by almost a foot over a couple decades. Pins have been set at the property corners, ostensibly, original monuments and are fairly stable. The pins are mowed over, and disappear from view into the soil. Curb cuts are right there on top of the ambulatory street and are being relied on to mark the extension of the property line. Homeowners see the curb cut and have always believed that to be the line.
